Hamas attacks Israel
-
Our dinner guests last night were all Jewish, so the conversation was pretty spirited this subject. Pretty much all pro-Israel, of course, but spirited still. The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?
wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 16:42 last edited by xenon@Mik said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Our dinner guests last night were all Jewish, so the conversation was pretty spirited this subject. Pretty much all pro-Israel, of course, but spirited still. The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?
I don’t think a society can shortcut its way to democracy. Groups like Hamas would have no compunction killing political rivals before they can stand for elections.
You have to really value the individual before you can care about elections.
-
@Mik said in Hamas attacks Israel:
The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?
Annnd?
wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 17:06 last edited by@George-K said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@Mik said in Hamas attacks Israel:
The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?
Annnd?
I believe there's a certain culpability that taints them. Which is not to say I approve of Larry's solution which, as Horace said, is the one employed throughout human history. But by the same token, a majority installed Hamas and there they have remained for what, 18 years? That's 18 years of lobbing rockets at the Jewish people and such lethal antics.
My friends said they would have to think about that. They do not hate the Gazans.
-
wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 17:21 last edited by
Without Larry's Solution, you have no solution.
This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.
-
wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 18:04 last edited by Renauda
This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.
The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.
No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.
-
wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 19:30 last edited by
Well written piece in the Atlantic.
Discussing the decolonization theory.
-
Well written piece in the Atlantic.
Discussing the decolonization theory.
wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 20:34 last edited by RenaudaUnfortunately the article is behind a paywall. Montefiore is a very good writer and historian, what he writes is always of strong merit.
-
wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 01:04 last edited by
Interesting Proposal:
"Here’s a proposal - for every day Hamas releases at least 20 hostages AND fires zero missiles at Israel, Israel agrees to a one-day ceasefire. That would allow for at least 10 days of a “ceasefire.” Would Hamas agree to this very modest proposal?"
-
This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.
The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.
No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.
wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 01:40 last edited by@Renauda said in Hamas attacks Israel:
This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.
The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.
No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.
Ok, Israel can go in there, fight a conventional modern war and this problem will come roaring back as it always does.
You could even create a Palestinian state and it would make little to no difference.
Again, applying modern tactics to the 13th century foe.
-
This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.
The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.
No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.
wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 01:49 last edited by LuFins Dad@Renauda said in Hamas attacks Israel:
This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.
The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.
No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.
The problem is at least 2 decades older than the treaty. Go back and look at the population numbers from 1880 through 1910. Both the Jewish and the Islamic population exploded far beyond normal reproductive rates for the region… Both groups began to actively populate the region.
Of course, the truth of 1890-1948 is irrelevant. What matters is that you now have 4 generations on both sides that have embraced perceptions and “feels”.
-
@Renauda said in Hamas attacks Israel:
This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.
The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.
No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.
The problem is at least 2 decades older than the treaty. Go back and look at the population numbers from 1880 through 1910. Both the Jewish and the Islamic population exploded far beyond normal reproductive rates for the region… Both groups began to actively populate the region.
Of course, the truth of 1890-1948 is irrelevant. What matters is that you now have 4 generations on both sides that have embraced perceptions and “feels”.
wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 04:16 last edited by RenaudaTrue enough. However the local Arab Muslims and Christians and the Sephardic Jews who lived there did so in relative peace (and under the Ottoman thumb) until the 1920’s when Palestine fell under the British Mandate. Rather than deal with the rising tensions, the British were preoccupied with keeping the members of the Hashemite dynasty in positions of power throughout greater Syria and Mesopotamia. Tensions and violence between Arabs and Jews increased with the trickle of of European Jews immigrating into Palestine. It reached a boiling point during WWII when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem went into exile and into the welcoming arms of Hitler and the Nazis.
So while these pre 1948 events may seem irrelevant today, they set the stage for the 4 generations of perceptions and feels you describe between Arab and Israeli that have continued to fester and periodically explode into flames throughout the Cold War and into the present.
-
wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 16:38 last edited by
-
wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 16:40 last edited by
Lots of shit going on
-
wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 16:41 last edited by
Btw IDF rescued a female soldier hostage. Breaking news.
-
Btw IDF rescued a female soldier hostage. Breaking news.
wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 16:41 last edited byThis post is deleted! -
wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 16:50 last edited by
Lots of N/A flights on flightradar these days, LOL. For example, this one...
-
wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 17:19 last edited by
drones for the most part
-
wrote on 31 Oct 2023, 06:31 last edited by
@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@George-K said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Allah'u Akhbar!
The mother of Shani Louk, an Israeli-German woman thought to have been kidnapped by Hamas gunmen at a music festival in Israel, says her daughter is dead.
Speaking to German media, Ricarda Louk said she had been told by the Israeli military that a DNA sample taken from part of a skull bone proved to be Shani's.
Her body has not yet been found.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67260093?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA
-
wrote on 31 Oct 2023, 12:19 last edited by
-
wrote on 31 Oct 2023, 12:30 last edited by
I imagine it's difficult to destroy tunnels without some damage to the overlying buildings.
-
@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@George-K said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Allah'u Akhbar!
The mother of Shani Louk, an Israeli-German woman thought to have been kidnapped by Hamas gunmen at a music festival in Israel, says her daughter is dead.
Speaking to German media, Ricarda Louk said she had been told by the Israeli military that a DNA sample taken from part of a skull bone proved to be Shani's.
Her body has not yet been found.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67260093?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA
wrote on 31 Oct 2023, 12:31 last edited by@taiwan_girl said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@George-K said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Allah'u Akhbar!
The mother of Shani Louk, an Israeli-German woman thought to have been kidnapped by Hamas gunmen at a music festival in Israel, says her daughter is dead.
Speaking to German media, Ricarda Louk said she had been told by the Israeli military that a DNA sample taken from part of a skull bone proved to be Shani's.
Her body has not yet been found.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67260093?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA
But, but, Hamas kept saying she was alive. Hamas wouldn't lie to the world, would they?
And that, my friends, is a major part of this current problem...Much of the media takes the garbage Hamas feeds them and reports it as news.