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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
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  3. Hamas attacks Israel

Hamas attacks Israel

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  • RenaudaR Offline
    RenaudaR Offline
    Renauda
    wrote on last edited by Renauda
    #638

    Emphasis mine:

    "From the Russian side, via the Foreign Ministry, we received a list of citizens that have dual citizenship," senior Hamas representative Moussa Abu Marzook said, the RIA Novosti news agency reported.
    “We are looking for those people... It is hard but we are looking. And when we find them, we will let them go. We are very attentive to this list and will process it carefully because we consider Russia to be a close friend," he said.

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/10/28/hamas-working-to-free-8-russian-israeli-hostages-reports-a82923

    Elbows up!

    1 Reply Last reply
    • George KG Offline
      George KG Offline
      George K
      wrote on last edited by
      #639

      The Israeli strategy:

      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • HoraceH Online
        HoraceH Online
        Horace
        wrote on last edited by Horace
        #640

        This is one of the better conversations I've heard, mostly for how clear the futility becomes, listening to a pro-Palestinian talk about his side. You can quibble with how he avoids putting any blame on the Islam faith, or on the Hamas oath to exterminate the Jews. Even without that, his more fundamental point remains that the Palestinians feel they were occupied, and they'd rather fight and die than submit to that. Factual arguments about whether they really are occupied or whether this is really their land are irrelevant, if that's how they feel.

        People have been taking land from one another by force forever, but western civilization has recently decided it's wrong. Now that the lines are acceptable to the people who make the rules, the people who make the rules have declared those lines to be the morally justified ones. The Palestinians don't feel that's fair, and that's totally understandable, even inevitable. As Hughes notes, anybody born in Palestine would feel justified in their perspective, and anybody born in Israel would feel justified in their perspective. Used to be, the people who weren't satisfied with being colonized, fought and died, or assimilated. There were no higher authorities to appeal to. But now Palestine knows they can appeal to the bleeding heart west, and the appeal works. So Israel tiptoes around the only viable solution, the solution which would have been practiced at all historical times except this one. Dominance through violence, forcing total capitulation of the conquered people.

        Link to video

        Education is extremely important.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • MikM Away
          MikM Away
          Mik
          wrote on last edited by
          #641

          Our dinner guests last night were all Jewish, so the conversation was pretty spirited this subject. Pretty much all pro-Israel, of course, but spirited still. The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

          George KG X 2 Replies Last reply
          • MikM Mik

            Our dinner guests last night were all Jewish, so the conversation was pretty spirited this subject. Pretty much all pro-Israel, of course, but spirited still. The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

            George KG Offline
            George KG Offline
            George K
            wrote on last edited by
            #642

            @Mik said in Hamas attacks Israel:

            The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

            Annnd?

            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

            MikM 1 Reply Last reply
            • MikM Mik

              Our dinner guests last night were all Jewish, so the conversation was pretty spirited this subject. Pretty much all pro-Israel, of course, but spirited still. The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

              X Offline
              X Offline
              xenon
              wrote on last edited by xenon
              #643

              @Mik said in Hamas attacks Israel:

              Our dinner guests last night were all Jewish, so the conversation was pretty spirited this subject. Pretty much all pro-Israel, of course, but spirited still. The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

              I don’t think a society can shortcut its way to democracy. Groups like Hamas would have no compunction killing political rivals before they can stand for elections.

              You have to really value the individual before you can care about elections.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • George KG George K

                @Mik said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

                Annnd?

                MikM Away
                MikM Away
                Mik
                wrote on last edited by
                #644

                @George-K said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                @Mik said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

                Annnd?

                I believe there's a certain culpability that taints them. Which is not to say I approve of Larry's solution which, as Horace said, is the one employed throughout human history. But by the same token, a majority installed Hamas and there they have remained for what, 18 years? That's 18 years of lobbing rockets at the Jewish people and such lethal antics.

                My friends said they would have to think about that. They do not hate the Gazans.

                “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                1 Reply Last reply
                • JollyJ Offline
                  JollyJ Offline
                  Jolly
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #645

                  Without Larry's Solution, you have no solution.

                  This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • RenaudaR Offline
                    RenaudaR Offline
                    Renauda
                    wrote on last edited by Renauda
                    #646

                    This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                    The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.

                    No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.

                    Elbows up!

                    JollyJ LuFins DadL 2 Replies Last reply
                    • bachophileB Offline
                      bachophileB Offline
                      bachophile
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #647

                      Well written piece in the Atlantic.

                      Discussing the decolonization theory.

                      https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

                      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                      • bachophileB bachophile

                        Well written piece in the Atlantic.

                        Discussing the decolonization theory.

                        https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

                        RenaudaR Offline
                        RenaudaR Offline
                        Renauda
                        wrote on last edited by Renauda
                        #648

                        @bachophile

                        Unfortunately the article is behind a paywall. Montefiore is a very good writer and historian, what he writes is always of strong merit.

                        Elbows up!

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • George KG Offline
                          George KG Offline
                          George K
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #649

                          Interesting Proposal:

                          "Here’s a proposal - for every day Hamas releases at least 20 hostages AND fires zero missiles at Israel, Israel agrees to a one-day ceasefire. That would allow for at least 10 days of a “ceasefire.” Would Hamas agree to this very modest proposal?"

                          "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                          The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • RenaudaR Renauda

                            This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                            The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.

                            No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.

                            JollyJ Offline
                            JollyJ Offline
                            Jolly
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #650

                            @Renauda said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                            This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                            The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.

                            No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.

                            Ok, Israel can go in there, fight a conventional modern war and this problem will come roaring back as it always does.

                            You could even create a Palestinian state and it would make little to no difference.

                            Again, applying modern tactics to the 13th century foe.

                            “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                            Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • RenaudaR Renauda

                              This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                              The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.

                              No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.

                              LuFins DadL Offline
                              LuFins DadL Offline
                              LuFins Dad
                              wrote on last edited by LuFins Dad
                              #651

                              @Renauda said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                              This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                              The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.

                              No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.

                              The problem is at least 2 decades older than the treaty. Go back and look at the population numbers from 1880 through 1910. Both the Jewish and the Islamic population exploded far beyond normal reproductive rates for the region… Both groups began to actively populate the region.

                              Of course, the truth of 1890-1948 is irrelevant. What matters is that you now have 4 generations on both sides that have embraced perceptions and “feels”.

                              The Brad

                              RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                              • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                                @Renauda said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                                This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                                The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.

                                No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.

                                The problem is at least 2 decades older than the treaty. Go back and look at the population numbers from 1880 through 1910. Both the Jewish and the Islamic population exploded far beyond normal reproductive rates for the region… Both groups began to actively populate the region.

                                Of course, the truth of 1890-1948 is irrelevant. What matters is that you now have 4 generations on both sides that have embraced perceptions and “feels”.

                                RenaudaR Offline
                                RenaudaR Offline
                                Renauda
                                wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                #652

                                @LuFins-Dad

                                True enough. However the local Arab Muslims and Christians and the Sephardic Jews who lived there did so in relative peace (and under the Ottoman thumb) until the 1920’s when Palestine fell under the British Mandate. Rather than deal with the rising tensions, the British were preoccupied with keeping the members of the Hashemite dynasty in positions of power throughout greater Syria and Mesopotamia. Tensions and violence between Arabs and Jews increased with the trickle of of European Jews immigrating into Palestine. It reached a boiling point during WWII when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem went into exile and into the welcoming arms of Hitler and the Nazis.

                                So while these pre 1948 events may seem irrelevant today, they set the stage for the 4 generations of perceptions and feels you describe between Arab and Israeli that have continued to fester and periodically explode into flames throughout the Cold War and into the present.

                                Elbows up!

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • bachophileB Offline
                                  bachophileB Offline
                                  bachophile
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #653

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • bachophileB Offline
                                    bachophileB Offline
                                    bachophile
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #654

                                    DECE2CED-D1D9-4FC2-A7A9-E8A5716ACE0F.jpeg

                                    Lots of shit going on

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • bachophileB Offline
                                      bachophileB Offline
                                      bachophile
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #655

                                      Btw IDF rescued a female soldier hostage. Breaking news.

                                      bachophileB 1 Reply Last reply
                                      • bachophileB bachophile

                                        Btw IDF rescued a female soldier hostage. Breaking news.

                                        bachophileB Offline
                                        bachophileB Offline
                                        bachophile
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #656
                                        This post is deleted!
                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • 89th8 Offline
                                          89th8 Offline
                                          89th
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #657

                                          Lots of N/A flights on flightradar these days, LOL. For example, this one...

                                          image.png

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