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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Hamas attacks Israel

Hamas attacks Israel

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  • H Offline
    H Offline
    Horace
    wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 16:23 last edited by Horace
    #640

    This is one of the better conversations I've heard, mostly for how clear the futility becomes, listening to a pro-Palestinian talk about his side. You can quibble with how he avoids putting any blame on the Islam faith, or on the Hamas oath to exterminate the Jews. Even without that, his more fundamental point remains that the Palestinians feel they were occupied, and they'd rather fight and die than submit to that. Factual arguments about whether they really are occupied or whether this is really their land are irrelevant, if that's how they feel.

    People have been taking land from one another by force forever, but western civilization has recently decided it's wrong. Now that the lines are acceptable to the people who make the rules, the people who make the rules have declared those lines to be the morally justified ones. The Palestinians don't feel that's fair, and that's totally understandable, even inevitable. As Hughes notes, anybody born in Palestine would feel justified in their perspective, and anybody born in Israel would feel justified in their perspective. Used to be, the people who weren't satisfied with being colonized, fought and died, or assimilated. There were no higher authorities to appeal to. But now Palestine knows they can appeal to the bleeding heart west, and the appeal works. So Israel tiptoes around the only viable solution, the solution which would have been practiced at all historical times except this one. Dominance through violence, forcing total capitulation of the conquered people.

    Link to video

    Education is extremely important.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • M Offline
      M Offline
      Mik
      wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 16:28 last edited by
      #641

      Our dinner guests last night were all Jewish, so the conversation was pretty spirited this subject. Pretty much all pro-Israel, of course, but spirited still. The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

      G X 2 Replies Last reply 29 Oct 2023, 16:29
      • M Mik
        29 Oct 2023, 16:28

        Our dinner guests last night were all Jewish, so the conversation was pretty spirited this subject. Pretty much all pro-Israel, of course, but spirited still. The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

        G Offline
        G Offline
        George K
        wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 16:29 last edited by
        #642

        @Mik said in Hamas attacks Israel:

        The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

        Annnd?

        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

        M 1 Reply Last reply 29 Oct 2023, 17:06
        • M Mik
          29 Oct 2023, 16:28

          Our dinner guests last night were all Jewish, so the conversation was pretty spirited this subject. Pretty much all pro-Israel, of course, but spirited still. The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

          X Offline
          X Offline
          xenon
          wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 16:42 last edited by xenon
          #643

          @Mik said in Hamas attacks Israel:

          Our dinner guests last night were all Jewish, so the conversation was pretty spirited this subject. Pretty much all pro-Israel, of course, but spirited still. The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

          I don’t think a society can shortcut its way to democracy. Groups like Hamas would have no compunction killing political rivals before they can stand for elections.

          You have to really value the individual before you can care about elections.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • G George K
            29 Oct 2023, 16:29

            @Mik said in Hamas attacks Israel:

            The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

            Annnd?

            M Offline
            M Offline
            Mik
            wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 17:06 last edited by
            #644

            @George-K said in Hamas attacks Israel:

            @Mik said in Hamas attacks Israel:

            The question I asked is, since the Gaza folks voted Hamas in, are there any innocent Gazans?

            Annnd?

            I believe there's a certain culpability that taints them. Which is not to say I approve of Larry's solution which, as Horace said, is the one employed throughout human history. But by the same token, a majority installed Hamas and there they have remained for what, 18 years? That's 18 years of lobbing rockets at the Jewish people and such lethal antics.

            My friends said they would have to think about that. They do not hate the Gazans.

            “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

            1 Reply Last reply
            • J Offline
              J Offline
              Jolly
              wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 17:21 last edited by
              #645

              Without Larry's Solution, you have no solution.

              This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

              1 Reply Last reply
              • R Offline
                R Offline
                Renauda
                wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 18:04 last edited by Renauda
                #646

                This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.

                No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.

                Elbows up!

                J L 2 Replies Last reply 30 Oct 2023, 01:40
                • B Online
                  B Online
                  bachophile
                  wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 19:30 last edited by
                  #647

                  Well written piece in the Atlantic.

                  Discussing the decolonization theory.

                  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

                  R 1 Reply Last reply 29 Oct 2023, 20:34
                  • B bachophile
                    29 Oct 2023, 19:30

                    Well written piece in the Atlantic.

                    Discussing the decolonization theory.

                    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

                    R Offline
                    R Offline
                    Renauda
                    wrote on 29 Oct 2023, 20:34 last edited by Renauda
                    #648

                    @bachophile

                    Unfortunately the article is behind a paywall. Montefiore is a very good writer and historian, what he writes is always of strong merit.

                    Elbows up!

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • G Offline
                      G Offline
                      George K
                      wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 01:04 last edited by
                      #649

                      Interesting Proposal:

                      "Here’s a proposal - for every day Hamas releases at least 20 hostages AND fires zero missiles at Israel, Israel agrees to a one-day ceasefire. That would allow for at least 10 days of a “ceasefire.” Would Hamas agree to this very modest proposal?"

                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • R Renauda
                        29 Oct 2023, 18:04

                        This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                        The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.

                        No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.

                        J Offline
                        J Offline
                        Jolly
                        wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 01:40 last edited by
                        #650

                        @Renauda said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                        This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                        The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.

                        No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.

                        Ok, Israel can go in there, fight a conventional modern war and this problem will come roaring back as it always does.

                        You could even create a Palestinian state and it would make little to no difference.

                        Again, applying modern tactics to the 13th century foe.

                        “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                        Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • R Renauda
                          29 Oct 2023, 18:04

                          This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                          The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.

                          No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.

                          L Offline
                          L Offline
                          LuFins Dad
                          wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 01:49 last edited by LuFins Dad
                          #651

                          @Renauda said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                          This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                          The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.

                          No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.

                          The problem is at least 2 decades older than the treaty. Go back and look at the population numbers from 1880 through 1910. Both the Jewish and the Islamic population exploded far beyond normal reproductive rates for the region… Both groups began to actively populate the region.

                          Of course, the truth of 1890-1948 is irrelevant. What matters is that you now have 4 generations on both sides that have embraced perceptions and “feels”.

                          The Brad

                          R 1 Reply Last reply 30 Oct 2023, 04:16
                          • L LuFins Dad
                            30 Oct 2023, 01:49

                            @Renauda said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                            This is not a 21st century problem. This is a 13th century problem.

                            The problem with that interpretation is that the King of France, Phillip the Fair and Pope Clement V, disbanded and destroyed the Knights Templar in the early 14th Century. I am quite sure you are aware of that fact.

                            No, it is very much an unresolved problem that started in the 20th century with the Treaty of Paris in 1919. Subsequent events in the region have grown out of the consequences of what that document facilitated.

                            The problem is at least 2 decades older than the treaty. Go back and look at the population numbers from 1880 through 1910. Both the Jewish and the Islamic population exploded far beyond normal reproductive rates for the region… Both groups began to actively populate the region.

                            Of course, the truth of 1890-1948 is irrelevant. What matters is that you now have 4 generations on both sides that have embraced perceptions and “feels”.

                            R Offline
                            R Offline
                            Renauda
                            wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 04:16 last edited by Renauda
                            #652

                            @LuFins-Dad

                            True enough. However the local Arab Muslims and Christians and the Sephardic Jews who lived there did so in relative peace (and under the Ottoman thumb) until the 1920’s when Palestine fell under the British Mandate. Rather than deal with the rising tensions, the British were preoccupied with keeping the members of the Hashemite dynasty in positions of power throughout greater Syria and Mesopotamia. Tensions and violence between Arabs and Jews increased with the trickle of of European Jews immigrating into Palestine. It reached a boiling point during WWII when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem went into exile and into the welcoming arms of Hitler and the Nazis.

                            So while these pre 1948 events may seem irrelevant today, they set the stage for the 4 generations of perceptions and feels you describe between Arab and Israeli that have continued to fester and periodically explode into flames throughout the Cold War and into the present.

                            Elbows up!

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • B Online
                              B Online
                              bachophile
                              wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 16:38 last edited by
                              #653

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • B Online
                                B Online
                                bachophile
                                wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 16:40 last edited by
                                #654

                                DECE2CED-D1D9-4FC2-A7A9-E8A5716ACE0F.jpeg

                                Lots of shit going on

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • B Online
                                  B Online
                                  bachophile
                                  wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 16:41 last edited by
                                  #655

                                  Btw IDF rescued a female soldier hostage. Breaking news.

                                  B 1 Reply Last reply 30 Oct 2023, 16:41
                                  • B bachophile
                                    30 Oct 2023, 16:41

                                    Btw IDF rescued a female soldier hostage. Breaking news.

                                    B Online
                                    B Online
                                    bachophile
                                    wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 16:41 last edited by
                                    #656
                                    This post is deleted!
                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • 8 Offline
                                      8 Offline
                                      89th
                                      wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 16:50 last edited by
                                      #657

                                      Lots of N/A flights on flightradar these days, LOL. For example, this one...

                                      image.png

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • B Online
                                        B Online
                                        bachophile
                                        wrote on 30 Oct 2023, 17:19 last edited by
                                        #658

                                        drones for the most part

                                        G 1 Reply Last reply 3 Nov 2023, 12:50
                                        • J jon-nyc
                                          7 Oct 2023, 22:10

                                          @George-K said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                                          Allah'u Akhbar!

                                          T Offline
                                          T Offline
                                          taiwan_girl
                                          wrote on 31 Oct 2023, 06:31 last edited by
                                          #659

                                          @jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                                          @George-K said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                                          Allah'u Akhbar!

                                          The mother of Shani Louk, an Israeli-German woman thought to have been kidnapped by Hamas gunmen at a music festival in Israel, says her daughter is dead.
                                          Speaking to German media, Ricarda Louk said she had been told by the Israeli military that a DNA sample taken from part of a skull bone proved to be Shani's.
                                          Her body has not yet been found.

                                          https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67260093?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA

                                          J 1 Reply Last reply 31 Oct 2023, 12:31
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