The Ukraine war thread

[Renauda]

@bachophile

[Horace]

SecState's take:

Link to video

[89th]

@LuFins-Dad said in The Ukraine war thread:

So we have two ideological driven narratives.

1. Trump is right, Trump is always right. Ergo, Vance is right by default. So by definition. Zelenskyy must be a total dickhead and an idiot. He’s not ready for the big time and needs to leave the world stage. Maybe we should invade Ukraine.

2. Trump is wrong. He is by his very nature wrong and must be evil. Therefore Vance is evil by default. And Zelenskyy must be a brave hero that has done everything correct in the defense of his country and Trump went beyond just embarrassing us, but is a danger to this country and we must rise up and overthrow him to save Democracy!

And there seems to be very little in between. As I’ve said many times in the past, I love it when everyone gets what they want, which seems to be what happened yesterday.

But, just maybe, yesterday was something in between? Maybe, just maybe, Trump and JD were being a little bit of dicks, while still being correct in some ways? And maybe, just maybe, Zelenskyy came in with a chip on his shoulder, and was feeling bullied, and responded in kind? Maybe, just maybe no one was blameless yesterday and everyone overreacted? It couldn’t possibly be that, could it?

I think that’s a pretty fair take.

[89th]

@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

SecState's take:

Link to video

Interesting interview. The lady is asking what everyone is thinking, including Zelenskyy. “Marco Rubio, even you’ve said Putin is a butcher and absolutely can’t be trusted in negotiations” and his response keeps coming back to “yeah but Trump is a deal maker”, what does that meeaannnnnn?? That’s the whole point.

[xenon]

There is some Deus Ex Machina that everyone expects from Trump - I actually really want to see this through now. What is the special deal that Trump can do to make Putin change his nature and start playing by the rules.

Playing this forward. Let’s say we get a deal and Putin now goes into Baltics or Poland. Is it the same stance again? Let him take some land and then go make a deal?

[xenon]

I’m also still waiting for that Obamacare replacement that’s two weeks away…

[Horace]

@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

Magats don’t like him anymore either. Like Zelensky, he started the war.

Because one guy Tucker Calrson talked to once, said that, while being intentionally provocative.

[89th]

@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:

There is some Deus Ex Machina that everyone expects from Trump - I actually really want to see this through now. What is the special deal that Trump can do to make Putin change his nature and start playing by the rules.

Playing this forward. Let’s say we get a deal and Putin now goes into Baltics or Poland. Is it the same stance again? Let him take some land and then go make a deal?

I’m curious too. Unfortunately we’ve seen this a thousand times. If it fails, it’s someone else’s fault. Before Trump if any US president ever gave Putin a deal (land etc) after he invaded and caused 1.5 million deaths, it would’ve been conservative top shelf blasphemy.

[Renauda]

@Horace

Because one guy Tucker Calrson talked to once, said that, while being intentionally provocative.

Okay, so I forgot earlier….your one fault is sometimes relying on and defending that yellow journalist and Walter Winchell wannabe, “ FuCa” for your information. You really ought to be more circumspect with regard to that muckraking wag. Now buck up or you’ll lose your respectable Libertarian status

[Horace]

@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:

There is some Deus Ex Machina that everyone expects from Trump - I actually really want to see this through now. What is the special deal that Trump can do to make Putin change his nature and start playing by the rules.

People are hoping, but "expecting" is probably a strong word.

Playing this forward. Let’s say we get a deal and Putin now goes into Baltics or Poland. Is it the same stance again? Let him take some land and then go make a deal?

Who knows? There's no pat playbook, as much as everybody would like to hand-wave from their armchair the existence of such a playbook that we're so obviously violating. Maybe we can argue about this specific situation rather than worrying about the precedent, while for some reason not worrying about the precedent of letting Russia slowly consume Ukraine.

[Horace]

@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Horace

Okay, so I forgot earlier….your one fault is sometimes relying on and defending that yellow journalist and Walter Winchell wannabe, “ FuCa” for your information. You really ought to be more circumspect with regard to that muckraking wag. Now buck up or you’ll lose your respectable Libertarian status

I am sure you will be consistently uneasy with any respect you may have for me, as I continue to post my opinions. But I doubt you'll find any blanket endorsements from me of anybody, including Carlson.

[Renauda]

I do hope so. I continue to have faith in you.

[Horace]

@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

SecState's take:

Link to video

Interesting interview. The lady is asking what everyone is thinking, including Zelenskyy. “Marco Rubio, even you’ve said Putin is a butcher and absolutely can’t be trusted in negotiations” and his response keeps coming back to “yeah but Trump is a deal maker”, what does that meeaannnnnn?? That’s the whole point.

So you don't grant the point - at all - that Trump doesn't necessarily want to go full-bore on the anti-Russia rhetoric, while his goal is to facilitate negotiations between them and Ukraine? There's no practical point there? Biden was free to say whatever because he never talked to Russia, and never intended to.

[xenon]

I get it. I guess my stance on this stems from my opinion on Trump. A lot of his criticisms and sales pitch for what’s wrong is fine.

I think he’s an empty suit beyond that. I haven’t seen any substantive policy or operational thought come from him in the last 10 years. I guess I’m skeptical that he has any competence for governance.

I think the guy is witty, funny, loves his country and can read people really well…. That doesn’t mean he knows anything about governance.

[Horace]

@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:

I get it. I guess my stance on this stems from my opinion on Trump. A lot of his criticisms and sales pitch for what’s wrong is fine.

I think he’s an empty suit beyond that. I haven’t seen any substantive policy or operational thought come from him in the last 10 years. I guess I’m skeptical that he has any competence for governance.

I think the guy is witty, funny, loves his country and can read people really well…. That doesn’t mean he knows anything about governance.

The Ukraine situation was doing a swell job of defeating the west, revealing its self-righteous rhetoric to be powerless and empty, well before Trump came back into power.

[xenon]

Sure - but I don’t think the delicate genius was going to do anything about it. I guess with that nihilistic attitude, yesterday didn’t really mean much in the grand scheme of things.

[89th]

@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:

I get it. I guess my stance on this stems from my opinion on Trump. A lot of his criticisms and sales pitch for what’s wrong is fine.

I think he’s an empty suit beyond that. I haven’t seen any substantive policy or operational thought come from him in the last 10 years. I guess I’m skeptical that he has any competence for governance.

I think the guy is witty, funny, loves his country and can read people really well…. That doesn’t mean he knows anything about governance.

That’s the thing. Even when the lady was discussing taking guns away from people with mental breakdowns, he kept asking “so is that how it works now?” He doesn’t have a clue BUT in his defense sometimes you can lead by knowing the macro picture without the details. That being said, if you asked Trump when did Ukraine become a country? He’d probably be like “not sure, the late 80s?”

[89th]

@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

SecState's take:

Link to video

Interesting interview. The lady is asking what everyone is thinking, including Zelenskyy. “Marco Rubio, even you’ve said Putin is a butcher and absolutely can’t be trusted in negotiations” and his response keeps coming back to “yeah but Trump is a deal maker”, what does that meeaannnnnn?? That’s the whole point.

So you don't grant the point - at all - that Trump doesn't necessarily want to go full-bore on the anti-Russia rhetoric, while his goal is to facilitate negotiations between them and Ukraine? There's no practical point there? Biden was free to say whatever because he never talked to Russia, and never intended to.

Oh I totally grant that point. It’s not what Trump is saying about Russia, it’s what Trump is saying about Ukraine that is horrendous.

[xenon]

I also find it weird that he’s playing the best cards we have (e.g. no NATO membership for Ukraine) without getting to the negotiation table… but again, he’s the deal maker.

[89th]

For example. Trump could’ve said “I understand your view of Putin and he sure has negotiated in bad faith before but I’m good at making deals and will work with him to bring this war to an end with security guarantees for Ukraine and no loss of land.”