Mar-a-Lago raided
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Excerpts from NBC News:
"Richard Immerman, a historian and an assistant deputy director of national intelligence in the Obama administration, said that, while the president has the authority to declassify documents, there’s a formal process for doing so, and there's no indication Trump used it.
"I’ve seen thousands of declassified documents. They’re all marked ‘declassified’ with the date they were declassified,” Immerman said.
That does not appear to have been the case with some of the documents that were returned to the National Archives from Mar-a-Lago this year. Archivist David S. Ferriero, an Obama appointee, said in a letter to the House Committee on Oversight and Reform in February that his agency had "identified items marked as classified national security information within the boxes” from Mar-a-Lago.
"A source who had discussed the matter with Trump but was not authorized to reveal those conversations said the former president wasn't concerned with formal protocol.
"We’ve told him there’s a process and not following it could be a problem but he didn’t care because he thinks this stuff is dumb,” the source said. “His attitude is that he is the president. He is in charge of the country and therefore national security. So he decides.”
Bradley Moss, a lawyer who specializes in national security issues, said, "That's not how it works."
"Trump could say we're declassifying this until he's blue in the face, but no one is allowed to touch those records until the markings are addressed," said Moss, a frequent Trump critic on Twitter.
"In the current dispute, the apparent lack of a paper trail showing that Trump declassified the documents before he left office could be a problem for the former president, said Stephen Vladeck, a University of Texas School of Law professor who specializes in national security."
For the whole article: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-allies-say-declassified-mar-lago-documents-experts-say-unclear-w-rcna42311
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 15:29 last edited byLike I wrote in Post #317 of this thread:
"We’ve [unidentified source] told him there’s a process and not following it could be a problem but he didn’t care because he thinks this stuff is dumb,” the source said. “His attitude is that he is the president. He is in charge of the country and therefore national security. So he decides.”
Bradley Moss, a lawyer who specializes in national security issues, said, "That's not how it works."
"Trump could say we're declassifying this until he's blue in the face, but no one is allowed to touch those records until the markings are addressed," said Moss, a frequent Trump critic on Twitter.
"In the current dispute, the apparent lack of a paper trail showing that Trump declassified the documents before he left office could be a problem for the former president, said Stephen Vladeck, a University of Texas School of Law professor who specializes in national security." -
@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
The President can make a simple statement to the Chief of Staff, "Any classified papers I take to my personal quarters shall be considered declassified".
At that point, they are.
Now, we can argue about T-crossing and I-dotting all we wish, but it really is that simple.
If you'd like to read part of the SCOTUS opinion...
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/484/518/
"The President, after all, is the 'Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States.' U.S. Const., Art. II, § 2. His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security...flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 15:32 last edited by Renauda@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
The President can make a simple statement to the Chief of Staff, "Any classified papers I take to my personal quarters shall be considered declassified".
At that point, they are.
Now, we can argue about T-crossing and I-dotting all we wish, but it really is that simple.
If you'd like to read part of the SCOTUS opinion...
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/484/518/
"The President, after all, is the 'Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States.' U.S. Const., Art. II, § 2. His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security...flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."
Now that doesn’t quite address the question or requirement of procedure does it?
In fact it is a distractor from the argument of procedure.
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wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 16:28 last edited by
The President may set whatever procedure he wants, if I read that correctly.
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wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 16:36 last edited by
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wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 16:53 last edited by
@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
The President may set whatever procedure he wants, if I read that correctly.
Really now? I suggest you are not reading that ruling in its entirety to arrive at an accurate understanding. Prove me wrong.
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@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
The President may set whatever procedure he wants, if I read that correctly.
Really now? I suggest you are not reading that ruling in its entirety to arrive at an accurate understanding. Prove me wrong.
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 17:17 last edited by@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
The President may set whatever procedure he wants, if I read that correctly.
Really now? I suggest you are not reading that ruling in its entirety to arrive at an accurate understanding. Prove me wrong.
Let's go back to 2009 and Obama's EO, which exempts the POTUS and VP:
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@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
The President may set whatever procedure he wants, if I read that correctly.
Really now? I suggest you are not reading that ruling in its entirety to arrive at an accurate understanding. Prove me wrong.
Let's go back to 2009 and Obama's EO, which exempts the POTUS and VP:
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 17:53 last edited by RenaudaLet's go back to 2009 and Obama's EO, which exempts the POTUS and VP
Here, knock yourself out:
executive order 13526 exemption president vice president
For simplicity sake you might also want to try to prove your statement by going here:
https://www.justice.gov/oip/page/file/1324436/download
Don’t think you’ll find it
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wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 18:41 last edited by
Again, these lay out policies and procedures for people who are below the office of the Chief Executive.
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Again, these lay out policies and procedures for people who are below the office of the Chief Executive.
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 19:27 last edited by RenaudaYes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.
Perhaps you do not understand the question.
Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.
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wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 19:41 last edited by jon-nyc
Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.
Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2009”
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Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.
Perhaps you do not understand the question.
Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 20:58 last edited by@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.
Perhaps you do not understand the question.
Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.
Show us explicitly where he cannot.
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Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.
Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2009”
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 21:17 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.
Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2007”
Nope, it only gives POTUS the ability to declassify things while he is in office.
As an example...President John Doe is sitting at the Resolute Desk and a widget-expert professor without a TS clearance is brought in to brief the President. The President reaches onto the desk and hands the prof a TS document on a heretofore unknown widget created by DARPA, and asks him to comment.
By his actions, the President has just declassified that document.
I think a lot of this boils down as to when Trump did or did not declassify the documents. I also think it makes a difference what documents they are.
And just as an aside, Trump now says he thinks they took his passport. If so, that's just chickenshit, and speaks volumes.
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@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.
Perhaps you do not understand the question.
Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.
Show us explicitly where he cannot.
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 21:23 last edited by@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.
Show us explicitly where he cannot.
https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/aug/11/could-trump-argue-declassified-documents/
"Merely proclaiming a document or group of documents declassified and doing nothing more would not suffice," Bradley Moss, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer who works on national security cases, told PolitiFact.Follow-through is required.
"He had to identify the specific documents he was declassifying, he needed to memorialize the order in writing for bureaucratic and historical purposes, and he needed to have staff physically modify the classification markings on the documents themselves," Moss said. "Until that was done, the documents, per the security classification procedures, still have to be handled, transmitted and stored as if they were classified."
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@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.
Show us explicitly where he cannot.
https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/aug/11/could-trump-argue-declassified-documents/
"Merely proclaiming a document or group of documents declassified and doing nothing more would not suffice," Bradley Moss, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer who works on national security cases, told PolitiFact.Follow-through is required.
"He had to identify the specific documents he was declassifying, he needed to memorialize the order in writing for bureaucratic and historical purposes, and he needed to have staff physically modify the classification markings on the documents themselves," Moss said. "Until that was done, the documents, per the security classification procedures, still have to be handled, transmitted and stored as if they were classified."
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 21:27 last edited by@Catseye3 said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.
Show us explicitly where he cannot.
https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/aug/11/could-trump-argue-declassified-documents/
"Merely proclaiming a document or group of documents declassified and doing nothing more would not suffice," Bradley Moss, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer who works on national security cases, told PolitiFact.Follow-through is required.
"He had to identify the specific documents he was declassifying, he needed to memorialize the order in writing for bureaucratic and historical purposes, and he needed to have staff physically modify the classification markings on the documents themselves," Moss said. "Until that was done, the documents, per the security classification procedures, still have to be handled, transmitted and stored as if they were classified."
That's an opinion piece.
You know what they say about opinions...
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@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.
Perhaps you do not understand the question.
Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.
Show us explicitly where he cannot.
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Show us explicitly where he cannot.
No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.
But at least you now understand the question. That is a step forward.
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 21:30 last edited by@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Show us explicitly where he cannot.
No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.
But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.
I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.
If you think POTUS spends his day signing releases for documents and carefully hiding stuff in his desk, you have a different view of a working Oval Office than I do.
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Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.
Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2009”
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 21:31 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.
Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2007”
Exactly. Show us the paper and policy. Not just your say-so.
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@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Show us explicitly where he cannot.
No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.
But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.
I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.
If you think POTUS spends his day signing releases for documents and carefully hiding stuff in his desk, you have a different view of a working Oval Office than I do.
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 21:33 last edited by@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Show us explicitly where he cannot.
No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.
But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.
I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.
Actually you have not. Sorry.
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@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Show us explicitly where he cannot.
No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.
But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.
I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.
Actually you have not. Sorry.
wrote on 15 Aug 2022, 21:39 last edited by@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Show us explicitly where he cannot.
No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.
But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.
I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.
Actually you have not. Sorry.
I think I have. Sorry.
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@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
@Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
@Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:
Show us explicitly where he cannot.
No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.
But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.
I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.
Actually you have not. Sorry.
I think I have. Sorry.