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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Mar-a-Lago raided

Mar-a-Lago raided

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  • AxtremusA Axtremus

    @George-K said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

    Copies of communications devices were destroyed with hammers. With hammers.

    Physical destruction of electronic data storage media to safeguard information security and data privacy is a standard practice. As long as the destruction does not happen after one has been legally ordered to preserve the data, physical destruction of electronic data storage media, be it with a hammer or other means, is neither illegal nor extraordinary.

    MikM Away
    MikM Away
    Mik
    wrote on last edited by
    #325

    @Axtremus said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

    @George-K said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

    Copies of communications devices were destroyed with hammers. With hammers.

    Physical destruction of electronic data storage media to safeguard information security and data privacy is a standard practice. As long as the destruction does not happen after one has been legally ordered to preserve the data, physical destruction of electronic data storage media, be it with a hammer or other means, is neither illegal nor extraordinary.

    It is if you were not supposed to have it, or have it on that medium, in the first place.

    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

    1 Reply Last reply
    • JollyJ Jolly

      The President can make a simple statement to the Chief of Staff, "Any classified papers I take to my personal quarters shall be considered declassified".

      At that point, they are.

      Now, we can argue about T-crossing and I-dotting all we wish, but it really is that simple.

      JollyJ Offline
      JollyJ Offline
      Jolly
      wrote on last edited by
      #326

      @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

      The President can make a simple statement to the Chief of Staff, "Any classified papers I take to my personal quarters shall be considered declassified".

      At that point, they are.

      Now, we can argue about T-crossing and I-dotting all we wish, but it really is that simple.

      If you'd like to read part of the SCOTUS opinion...

      https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/484/518/

      "The President, after all, is the 'Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States.' U.S. Const., Art. II, § 2. His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security...flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."

      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
      • Catseye3C Catseye3

        Excerpts from NBC News:

        "Richard Immerman, a historian and an assistant deputy director of national intelligence in the Obama administration, said that, while the president has the authority to declassify documents, there’s a formal process for doing so, and there's no indication Trump used it.

        "I’ve seen thousands of declassified documents. They’re all marked ‘declassified’ with the date they were declassified,” Immerman said.

        That does not appear to have been the case with some of the documents that were returned to the National Archives from Mar-a-Lago this year. Archivist David S. Ferriero, an Obama appointee, said in a letter to the House Committee on Oversight and Reform in February that his agency had "identified items marked as classified national security information within the boxes” from Mar-a-Lago.

        "A source who had discussed the matter with Trump but was not authorized to reveal those conversations said the former president wasn't concerned with formal protocol.

        "We’ve told him there’s a process and not following it could be a problem but he didn’t care because he thinks this stuff is dumb,” the source said. “His attitude is that he is the president. He is in charge of the country and therefore national security. So he decides.”

        Bradley Moss, a lawyer who specializes in national security issues, said, "That's not how it works."

        "Trump could say we're declassifying this until he's blue in the face, but no one is allowed to touch those records until the markings are addressed," said Moss, a frequent Trump critic on Twitter.

        "In the current dispute, the apparent lack of a paper trail showing that Trump declassified the documents before he left office could be a problem for the former president, said Stephen Vladeck, a University of Texas School of Law professor who specializes in national security."

        For the whole article: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-allies-say-declassified-mar-lago-documents-experts-say-unclear-w-rcna42311

        Catseye3C Offline
        Catseye3C Offline
        Catseye3
        wrote on last edited by
        #327

        Like I wrote in Post #317 of this thread:

        "We’ve [unidentified source] told him there’s a process and not following it could be a problem but he didn’t care because he thinks this stuff is dumb,” the source said. “His attitude is that he is the president. He is in charge of the country and therefore national security. So he decides.”
        Bradley Moss, a lawyer who specializes in national security issues, said, "That's not how it works."
        "Trump could say we're declassifying this until he's blue in the face, but no one is allowed to touch those records until the markings are addressed," said Moss, a frequent Trump critic on Twitter.
        "In the current dispute, the apparent lack of a paper trail showing that Trump declassified the documents before he left office could be a problem for the former president, said Stephen Vladeck, a University of Texas School of Law professor who specializes in national security."

        Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

        1 Reply Last reply
        • JollyJ Jolly

          @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

          The President can make a simple statement to the Chief of Staff, "Any classified papers I take to my personal quarters shall be considered declassified".

          At that point, they are.

          Now, we can argue about T-crossing and I-dotting all we wish, but it really is that simple.

          If you'd like to read part of the SCOTUS opinion...

          https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/484/518/

          "The President, after all, is the 'Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States.' U.S. Const., Art. II, § 2. His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security...flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."

          RenaudaR Offline
          RenaudaR Offline
          Renauda
          wrote on last edited by Renauda
          #328

          @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

          @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

          The President can make a simple statement to the Chief of Staff, "Any classified papers I take to my personal quarters shall be considered declassified".

          At that point, they are.

          Now, we can argue about T-crossing and I-dotting all we wish, but it really is that simple.

          If you'd like to read part of the SCOTUS opinion...

          https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/484/518/

          "The President, after all, is the 'Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States.' U.S. Const., Art. II, § 2. His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security...flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."

          Now that doesn’t quite address the question or requirement of procedure does it?

          In fact it is a distractor from the argument of procedure.

          Elbows up!

          1 Reply Last reply
          • JollyJ Offline
            JollyJ Offline
            Jolly
            wrote on last edited by
            #329

            The President may set whatever procedure he wants, if I read that correctly.

            “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

            Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

            RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
            • JollyJ Offline
              JollyJ Offline
              Jolly
              wrote on last edited by
              #330

              Special Master denied.

              https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2022/08/14/is-this-proof-the-mar-a-lago-raid-was-a-fishing-expedition-n1620970

              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

              1 Reply Last reply
              • JollyJ Jolly

                The President may set whatever procedure he wants, if I read that correctly.

                RenaudaR Offline
                RenaudaR Offline
                Renauda
                wrote on last edited by
                #331

                @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                The President may set whatever procedure he wants, if I read that correctly.

                Really now? I suggest you are not reading that ruling in its entirety to arrive at an accurate understanding. Prove me wrong.

                Elbows up!

                JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                • RenaudaR Renauda

                  @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                  The President may set whatever procedure he wants, if I read that correctly.

                  Really now? I suggest you are not reading that ruling in its entirety to arrive at an accurate understanding. Prove me wrong.

                  JollyJ Offline
                  JollyJ Offline
                  Jolly
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #332

                  @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                  @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                  The President may set whatever procedure he wants, if I read that correctly.

                  Really now? I suggest you are not reading that ruling in its entirety to arrive at an accurate understanding. Prove me wrong.

                  Let's go back to 2009 and Obama's EO, which exempts the POTUS and VP:

                  https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-documents/cnsi-eo.html

                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                  RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                  • JollyJ Jolly

                    @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                    @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                    The President may set whatever procedure he wants, if I read that correctly.

                    Really now? I suggest you are not reading that ruling in its entirety to arrive at an accurate understanding. Prove me wrong.

                    Let's go back to 2009 and Obama's EO, which exempts the POTUS and VP:

                    https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-documents/cnsi-eo.html

                    RenaudaR Offline
                    RenaudaR Offline
                    Renauda
                    wrote on last edited by Renauda
                    #333

                    @Jolly

                    Let's go back to 2009 and Obama's EO, which exempts the POTUS and VP

                    Here, knock yourself out:

                    executive order 13526 exemption president vice president

                    For simplicity sake you might also want to try to prove your statement by going here:

                    https://www.justice.gov/oip/page/file/1324436/download

                    Don’t think you’ll find it

                    Elbows up!

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • JollyJ Offline
                      JollyJ Offline
                      Jolly
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #334

                      Again, these lay out policies and procedures for people who are below the office of the Chief Executive.

                      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                      • JollyJ Jolly

                        Again, these lay out policies and procedures for people who are below the office of the Chief Executive.

                        RenaudaR Offline
                        RenaudaR Offline
                        Renauda
                        wrote on last edited by Renauda
                        #335

                        @Jolly

                        Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.

                        Perhaps you do not understand the question.

                        Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                        Elbows up!

                        JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ Offline
                          jon-nycJ Offline
                          jon-nyc
                          wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                          #336

                          Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

                          Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2009”

                          Only non-witches get due process.

                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                          JollyJ George KG 2 Replies Last reply
                          • RenaudaR Renauda

                            @Jolly

                            Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.

                            Perhaps you do not understand the question.

                            Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                            JollyJ Offline
                            JollyJ Offline
                            Jolly
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #337

                            @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                            @Jolly

                            Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.

                            Perhaps you do not understand the question.

                            Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                            Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                            “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                            Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                            Catseye3C RenaudaR 2 Replies Last reply
                            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                              Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

                              Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2009”

                              JollyJ Offline
                              JollyJ Offline
                              Jolly
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #338

                              @jon-nyc said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                              Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

                              Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2007”

                              Nope, it only gives POTUS the ability to declassify things while he is in office.

                              As an example...President John Doe is sitting at the Resolute Desk and a widget-expert professor without a TS clearance is brought in to brief the President. The President reaches onto the desk and hands the prof a TS document on a heretofore unknown widget created by DARPA, and asks him to comment.

                              By his actions, the President has just declassified that document.

                              I think a lot of this boils down as to when Trump did or did not declassify the documents. I also think it makes a difference what documents they are.

                              And just as an aside, Trump now says he thinks they took his passport. If so, that's just chickenshit, and speaks volumes.

                              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                              jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                              • JollyJ Jolly

                                @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                @Jolly

                                Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.

                                Perhaps you do not understand the question.

                                Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                                Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                                Catseye3C Offline
                                Catseye3C Offline
                                Catseye3
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #339

                                @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                                Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                                https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/aug/11/could-trump-argue-declassified-documents/
                                "Merely proclaiming a document or group of documents declassified and doing nothing more would not suffice," Bradley Moss, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer who works on national security cases, told PolitiFact.

                                Follow-through is required.

                                "He had to identify the specific documents he was declassifying, he needed to memorialize the order in writing for bureaucratic and historical purposes, and he needed to have staff physically modify the classification markings on the documents themselves," Moss said. "Until that was done, the documents, per the security classification procedures, still have to be handled, transmitted and stored as if they were classified."

                                Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

                                JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                • Catseye3C Catseye3

                                  @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                  Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                                  Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                                  https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/aug/11/could-trump-argue-declassified-documents/
                                  "Merely proclaiming a document or group of documents declassified and doing nothing more would not suffice," Bradley Moss, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer who works on national security cases, told PolitiFact.

                                  Follow-through is required.

                                  "He had to identify the specific documents he was declassifying, he needed to memorialize the order in writing for bureaucratic and historical purposes, and he needed to have staff physically modify the classification markings on the documents themselves," Moss said. "Until that was done, the documents, per the security classification procedures, still have to be handled, transmitted and stored as if they were classified."

                                  JollyJ Offline
                                  JollyJ Offline
                                  Jolly
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #340

                                  @Catseye3 said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                  @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                  Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                                  Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                                  https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/aug/11/could-trump-argue-declassified-documents/
                                  "Merely proclaiming a document or group of documents declassified and doing nothing more would not suffice," Bradley Moss, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer who works on national security cases, told PolitiFact.

                                  Follow-through is required.

                                  "He had to identify the specific documents he was declassifying, he needed to memorialize the order in writing for bureaucratic and historical purposes, and he needed to have staff physically modify the classification markings on the documents themselves," Moss said. "Until that was done, the documents, per the security classification procedures, still have to be handled, transmitted and stored as if they were classified."

                                  That's an opinion piece.

                                  You know what they say about opinions...

                                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • JollyJ Jolly

                                    @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                    @Jolly

                                    Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.

                                    Perhaps you do not understand the question.

                                    Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                                    Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                                    RenaudaR Offline
                                    RenaudaR Offline
                                    Renauda
                                    wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                    #341

                                    @Jolly

                                    Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                                    No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                                    But at least you now understand the question. That is a step forward.

                                    Elbows up!

                                    JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                    • RenaudaR Renauda

                                      @Jolly

                                      Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                                      No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                                      But at least you now understand the question. That is a step forward.

                                      JollyJ Offline
                                      JollyJ Offline
                                      Jolly
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #342

                                      @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                      @Jolly

                                      Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                                      No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                                      But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.

                                      I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.

                                      If you think POTUS spends his day signing releases for documents and carefully hiding stuff in his desk, you have a different view of a working Oval Office than I do.

                                      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                                      • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                        Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

                                        Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2009”

                                        George KG Offline
                                        George KG Offline
                                        George K
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #343

                                        @jon-nyc said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                        Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

                                        Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2007”

                                        Exactly. Show us the paper and policy. Not just your say-so.

                                        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • JollyJ Jolly

                                          @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                          @Jolly

                                          Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                                          No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                                          But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.

                                          I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.

                                          If you think POTUS spends his day signing releases for documents and carefully hiding stuff in his desk, you have a different view of a working Oval Office than I do.

                                          RenaudaR Offline
                                          RenaudaR Offline
                                          Renauda
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #344

                                          @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                          @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                          @Jolly

                                          Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                                          No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                                          But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.

                                          I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.

                                          Actually you have not. Sorry.

                                          Elbows up!

                                          JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
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