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  3. Mar-a-Lago raided

Mar-a-Lago raided

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  • JollyJ Jolly

    @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

    @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

    The President may set whatever procedure he wants, if I read that correctly.

    Really now? I suggest you are not reading that ruling in its entirety to arrive at an accurate understanding. Prove me wrong.

    Let's go back to 2009 and Obama's EO, which exempts the POTUS and VP:

    https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-documents/cnsi-eo.html

    RenaudaR Offline
    RenaudaR Offline
    Renauda
    wrote on last edited by Renauda
    #333

    @Jolly

    Let's go back to 2009 and Obama's EO, which exempts the POTUS and VP

    Here, knock yourself out:

    executive order 13526 exemption president vice president

    For simplicity sake you might also want to try to prove your statement by going here:

    https://www.justice.gov/oip/page/file/1324436/download

    Don’t think you’ll find it

    Elbows up!

    1 Reply Last reply
    • JollyJ Offline
      JollyJ Offline
      Jolly
      wrote on last edited by
      #334

      Again, these lay out policies and procedures for people who are below the office of the Chief Executive.

      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
      • JollyJ Jolly

        Again, these lay out policies and procedures for people who are below the office of the Chief Executive.

        RenaudaR Offline
        RenaudaR Offline
        Renauda
        wrote on last edited by Renauda
        #335

        @Jolly

        Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.

        Perhaps you do not understand the question.

        Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

        Elbows up!

        JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
          #336

          Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

          Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2009”

          Only non-witches get due process.

          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
          JollyJ George KG 2 Replies Last reply
          • RenaudaR Renauda

            @Jolly

            Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.

            Perhaps you do not understand the question.

            Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

            JollyJ Offline
            JollyJ Offline
            Jolly
            wrote on last edited by
            #337

            @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

            @Jolly

            Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.

            Perhaps you do not understand the question.

            Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

            Show us explicitly where he cannot.

            “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

            Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

            Catseye3C RenaudaR 2 Replies Last reply
            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

              Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

              Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2009”

              JollyJ Offline
              JollyJ Offline
              Jolly
              wrote on last edited by
              #338

              @jon-nyc said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

              Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

              Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2007”

              Nope, it only gives POTUS the ability to declassify things while he is in office.

              As an example...President John Doe is sitting at the Resolute Desk and a widget-expert professor without a TS clearance is brought in to brief the President. The President reaches onto the desk and hands the prof a TS document on a heretofore unknown widget created by DARPA, and asks him to comment.

              By his actions, the President has just declassified that document.

              I think a lot of this boils down as to when Trump did or did not declassify the documents. I also think it makes a difference what documents they are.

              And just as an aside, Trump now says he thinks they took his passport. If so, that's just chickenshit, and speaks volumes.

              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

              jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
              • JollyJ Jolly

                @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                @Jolly

                Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.

                Perhaps you do not understand the question.

                Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                Catseye3C Offline
                Catseye3C Offline
                Catseye3
                wrote on last edited by
                #339

                @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/aug/11/could-trump-argue-declassified-documents/
                "Merely proclaiming a document or group of documents declassified and doing nothing more would not suffice," Bradley Moss, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer who works on national security cases, told PolitiFact.

                Follow-through is required.

                "He had to identify the specific documents he was declassifying, he needed to memorialize the order in writing for bureaucratic and historical purposes, and he needed to have staff physically modify the classification markings on the documents themselves," Moss said. "Until that was done, the documents, per the security classification procedures, still have to be handled, transmitted and stored as if they were classified."

                Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

                JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                • Catseye3C Catseye3

                  @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                  Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                  Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                  https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/aug/11/could-trump-argue-declassified-documents/
                  "Merely proclaiming a document or group of documents declassified and doing nothing more would not suffice," Bradley Moss, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer who works on national security cases, told PolitiFact.

                  Follow-through is required.

                  "He had to identify the specific documents he was declassifying, he needed to memorialize the order in writing for bureaucratic and historical purposes, and he needed to have staff physically modify the classification markings on the documents themselves," Moss said. "Until that was done, the documents, per the security classification procedures, still have to be handled, transmitted and stored as if they were classified."

                  JollyJ Offline
                  JollyJ Offline
                  Jolly
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #340

                  @Catseye3 said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                  @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                  Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                  Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                  https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/aug/11/could-trump-argue-declassified-documents/
                  "Merely proclaiming a document or group of documents declassified and doing nothing more would not suffice," Bradley Moss, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer who works on national security cases, told PolitiFact.

                  Follow-through is required.

                  "He had to identify the specific documents he was declassifying, he needed to memorialize the order in writing for bureaucratic and historical purposes, and he needed to have staff physically modify the classification markings on the documents themselves," Moss said. "Until that was done, the documents, per the security classification procedures, still have to be handled, transmitted and stored as if they were classified."

                  That's an opinion piece.

                  You know what they say about opinions...

                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • JollyJ Jolly

                    @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                    @Jolly

                    Yes, but the discussion is about the Chief Executive not others in or below his office.

                    Perhaps you do not understand the question.

                    Let me put to you more simply: Show us where it explicitly states the POTUS can declassify T.S. documents without telling anyone or leaving any sort of paper trail. I suggest you cannot.

                    Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                    RenaudaR Offline
                    RenaudaR Offline
                    Renauda
                    wrote on last edited by Renauda
                    #341

                    @Jolly

                    Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                    No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                    But at least you now understand the question. That is a step forward.

                    Elbows up!

                    JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                    • RenaudaR Renauda

                      @Jolly

                      Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                      No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                      But at least you now understand the question. That is a step forward.

                      JollyJ Offline
                      JollyJ Offline
                      Jolly
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #342

                      @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                      @Jolly

                      Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                      No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                      But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.

                      I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.

                      If you think POTUS spends his day signing releases for documents and carefully hiding stuff in his desk, you have a different view of a working Oval Office than I do.

                      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                      • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                        Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

                        Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2009”

                        George KG Offline
                        George KG Offline
                        George K
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #343

                        @jon-nyc said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                        Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

                        Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2007”

                        Exactly. Show us the paper and policy. Not just your say-so.

                        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • JollyJ Jolly

                          @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                          @Jolly

                          Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                          No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                          But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.

                          I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.

                          If you think POTUS spends his day signing releases for documents and carefully hiding stuff in his desk, you have a different view of a working Oval Office than I do.

                          RenaudaR Offline
                          RenaudaR Offline
                          Renauda
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #344

                          @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                          @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                          @Jolly

                          Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                          No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                          But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.

                          I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.

                          Actually you have not. Sorry.

                          Elbows up!

                          JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                          • RenaudaR Renauda

                            @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                            @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                            @Jolly

                            Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                            No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                            But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.

                            I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.

                            Actually you have not. Sorry.

                            JollyJ Offline
                            JollyJ Offline
                            Jolly
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #345

                            @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                            @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                            @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                            @Jolly

                            Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                            No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                            But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.

                            I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.

                            Actually you have not. Sorry.

                            I think I have. Sorry.

                            “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                            Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                            RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                            • JollyJ Jolly

                              @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                              @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                              @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                              @Jolly

                              Show us explicitly where he cannot.

                              No, the onus is on you to show us that he can.

                              But at least you now understand the question. That is step forward.

                              I've already showed where he can. I've even offered a simple example.

                              Actually you have not. Sorry.

                              I think I have. Sorry.

                              RenaudaR Offline
                              RenaudaR Offline
                              Renauda
                              wrote on last edited by Renauda
                              #346

                              @Jolly

                              Well, think harder. You made up a story.

                              Wish I could say, sorry because I’m not in the least bit, sorry.

                              Elbows up!

                              JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                              • RenaudaR Renauda

                                @Jolly

                                Well, think harder. You made up a story.

                                Wish I could say, sorry because I’m not in the least bit, sorry.

                                JollyJ Offline
                                JollyJ Offline
                                Jolly
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #347

                                @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                @Jolly

                                Well, think harder. You made up a story.

                                Wish I could say, sorry because I’m not in the least bit, sorry.

                                No, I doubt you are.

                                Now, is this the part of the thread where I say that you're an obtuse SOB, or would you like to start the festivities?

                                “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                                • JollyJ Jolly

                                  @Renauda said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                  @Jolly

                                  Well, think harder. You made up a story.

                                  Wish I could say, sorry because I’m not in the least bit, sorry.

                                  No, I doubt you are.

                                  Now, is this the part of the thread where I say that you're an obtuse SOB, or would you like to start the festivities?

                                  RenaudaR Offline
                                  RenaudaR Offline
                                  Renauda
                                  wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                  #348

                                  @Jolly

                                  I take it then you have nothing more to say other than up make up stories. Several others here have shown you to be incorrect or, at least, inaccurate as well on this topic. I rest my argument.

                                  Elbows up!

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • JollyJ Offline
                                    JollyJ Offline
                                    Jolly
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #349

                                    Then, R.I.P.

                                    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • JollyJ Jolly

                                      @jon-nyc said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                      Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

                                      Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2007”

                                      Nope, it only gives POTUS the ability to declassify things while he is in office.

                                      As an example...President John Doe is sitting at the Resolute Desk and a widget-expert professor without a TS clearance is brought in to brief the President. The President reaches onto the desk and hands the prof a TS document on a heretofore unknown widget created by DARPA, and asks him to comment.

                                      By his actions, the President has just declassified that document.

                                      I think a lot of this boils down as to when Trump did or did not declassify the documents. I also think it makes a difference what documents they are.

                                      And just as an aside, Trump now says he thinks they took his passport. If so, that's just chickenshit, and speaks volumes.

                                      jon-nycJ Offline
                                      jon-nycJ Offline
                                      jon-nyc
                                      wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                                      #350

                                      @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                      @jon-nyc said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                      Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

                                      Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2007”

                                      Nope, it only gives POTUS the ability to declassify things while he is in office.

                                      The point is if the decision doesn’t need to be documented there’s be nothing stopping them from doing an ex-post claim. Like Trump is probably doing.

                                      Only non-witches get due process.

                                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                      George KG JollyJ 2 Replies Last reply
                                      • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                        @Jolly said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                        @jon-nyc said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                        Trump’s current argument seems untenable. If no documentation were required that would give any former POTUS the ability to declassify things for the rest of his life.

                                        Obama could publish the detailed schematics of the Virginia class nuclear fast attack submarines and say “oh, I declassified these in 2007”

                                        Nope, it only gives POTUS the ability to declassify things while he is in office.

                                        The point is if the decision doesn’t need to be documented there’s be nothing stopping them from doing an ex-post claim. Like Trump is probably doing.

                                        George KG Offline
                                        George KG Offline
                                        George K
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #351

                                        @jon-nyc said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                        The point is if the decision doesn’t need to be documented there’s be nothing stopping them from doing an ex-post claim. Like Trump is probably doing.

                                        If you didn't document it, it didn't happen. You'd think Trump would have learned that after 4 years.

                                        And, in the same vein, you'd think that his legal team would have told him that.

                                        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                        Doctor PhibesD Catseye3C 3 Replies Last reply
                                        • George KG George K

                                          @jon-nyc said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                          The point is if the decision doesn’t need to be documented there’s be nothing stopping them from doing an ex-post claim. Like Trump is probably doing.

                                          If you didn't document it, it didn't happen. You'd think Trump would have learned that after 4 years.

                                          And, in the same vein, you'd think that his legal team would have told him that.

                                          Doctor PhibesD Online
                                          Doctor PhibesD Online
                                          Doctor Phibes
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #352

                                          @George-K said in Mar-a-Lago raided:

                                          If you didn't document it, it didn't happen. You'd think Trump would have learned that after 4 years.

                                          To be fair, he probably did learn it very well in the last 50-odd years, but being POTUS isn't the same as being whatever the polite term is for somebody like Trump in the real estate business.

                                          I was only joking

                                          RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
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