The Ukraine war thread
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by
Sure - but I don’t think the delicate genius was going to do anything about it. I guess with that nihilistic attitude, yesterday didn’t really mean much in the grand scheme of things.
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I get it. I guess my stance on this stems from my opinion on Trump. A lot of his criticisms and sales pitch for what’s wrong is fine.
I think he’s an empty suit beyond that. I haven’t seen any substantive policy or operational thought come from him in the last 10 years. I guess I’m skeptical that he has any competence for governance.
I think the guy is witty, funny, loves his country and can read people really well…. That doesn’t mean he knows anything about governance.
wrote 14 days ago last edited by@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
I get it. I guess my stance on this stems from my opinion on Trump. A lot of his criticisms and sales pitch for what’s wrong is fine.
I think he’s an empty suit beyond that. I haven’t seen any substantive policy or operational thought come from him in the last 10 years. I guess I’m skeptical that he has any competence for governance.
I think the guy is witty, funny, loves his country and can read people really well…. That doesn’t mean he knows anything about governance.
That’s the thing. Even when the lady was discussing taking guns away from people with mental breakdowns, he kept asking “so is that how it works now?” He doesn’t have a clue BUT in his defense sometimes you can lead by knowing the macro picture without the details. That being said, if you asked Trump when did Ukraine become a country? He’d probably be like “not sure, the late 80s?”
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@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
SecState's take:
Link to videoInteresting interview. The lady is asking what everyone is thinking, including Zelenskyy. “Marco Rubio, even you’ve said Putin is a butcher and absolutely can’t be trusted in negotiations” and his response keeps coming back to “yeah but Trump is a deal maker”, what does that meeaannnnnn?? That’s the whole point.
So you don't grant the point - at all - that Trump doesn't necessarily want to go full-bore on the anti-Russia rhetoric, while his goal is to facilitate negotiations between them and Ukraine? There's no practical point there? Biden was free to say whatever because he never talked to Russia, and never intended to.
wrote 14 days ago last edited by@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
SecState's take:
Link to videoInteresting interview. The lady is asking what everyone is thinking, including Zelenskyy. “Marco Rubio, even you’ve said Putin is a butcher and absolutely can’t be trusted in negotiations” and his response keeps coming back to “yeah but Trump is a deal maker”, what does that meeaannnnnn?? That’s the whole point.
So you don't grant the point - at all - that Trump doesn't necessarily want to go full-bore on the anti-Russia rhetoric, while his goal is to facilitate negotiations between them and Ukraine? There's no practical point there? Biden was free to say whatever because he never talked to Russia, and never intended to.
Oh I totally grant that point. It’s not what Trump is saying about Russia, it’s what Trump is saying about Ukraine that is horrendous.
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by
I also find it weird that he’s playing the best cards we have (e.g. no NATO membership for Ukraine) without getting to the negotiation table… but again, he’s the deal maker.
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by 89th 3 Jan 2025, 21:04
For example. Trump could’ve said “I understand your view of Putin and he sure has negotiated in bad faith before but I’m good at making deals and will work with him to bring this war to an end with security guarantees for Ukraine and no loss of land.”
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by
Fair point
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by
Which betrays that JD doesn’t think Trump has a plan. Because if he did, (assuming he shares it with JD). Why would JD get pissy about it? He’d be like “just wait and see padawan”
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by 89th 3 Jan 2025, 21:18
Yeah maybe. I think there’s possible frustration from JD knowing that a real deal with Putin is likely impossible and they didn’t want Zelenskyy messing up the first mineral rights deal (and possibly only deal) headline.
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
I’m also still waiting for that Obamacare replacement that’s two weeks away…
First we have to get through infrastructure week.
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by
Mr. Trump is a producer, actor and writer. How does that get forgotten?
His IMDB credits go on for pages.
That talk with Zelenskyy was rehearsed for weeks before the cameras turned on.
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by
You have to squint pretty hard not to give Zelensky any agency in that victory for Russia. Which puts his inadequacies as a statesman in even sharper relief.
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by
No doubt he handled it poorly.
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by Renauda 3 Jan 2025, 22:26
No matter how poorly Zelenskyi handled it, Vance and Trump, as one analyst I watched on the BBC spelled it out, together seized defeat from the jaws of victory. Especially pathetic was when Trump blurted out “Putin went through a hell of a lot with me”. Sorry but the victim card both Trump and Putin love to play before cameras has worn thin. Neither are victims, or ever were victims in any of this.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
SecState's take:
Link to videoInteresting interview. The lady is asking what everyone is thinking, including Zelenskyy. “Marco Rubio, even you’ve said Putin is a butcher and absolutely can’t be trusted in negotiations” and his response keeps coming back to “yeah but Trump is a deal maker”, what does that meeaannnnnn?? That’s the whole point.
wrote 14 days ago last edited by@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
SecState's take:
Link to videoInteresting interview. The lady is asking what everyone is thinking, including Zelenskyy. “Marco Rubio, even you’ve said Putin is a butcher and absolutely can’t be trusted in negotiations” and his response keeps coming back to “yeah but Trump is a deal maker”, what does that meeaannnnnn?? That’s the whole point.
What does it mean? It means are you ready to eliminate him? If not, then you have to find some sort of workable deal.
So which is it?
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wrote 14 days ago last edited by
Some practical realities from VDH, as he sees them
Link to video -
Some practical realities from VDH, as he sees them
Link to videowrote 14 days ago last edited by Renauda 3 Feb 2025, 00:11I found VDH’s presentation balanced, clear and thoughtful. I am not though at all convinced Putin would consider relinquishing so much as a metre of occupied territory or let alone agree to a any DMZ without including the full territory the annexed of the Donbas, Kherson and Zaporizhie oblasts (provinces). Probably more - but that remains to be seen. There is also the question of leaving Ukraine alone once an armistice or peace deal is signed. it’s not just force of arms Putin will use to subjugate and control Ukraine. Never forget that he is a highly trained KGB hood and uses multiple methods and means to obtain his intended objectives. VDH seems to think the presence of US/EU concessions and technical assistance will act as a credible deterrent. I hope he’s right but I believe he Is being naive about Putin and the Kremlin overall on the subject. Putin has little to no respect for such foreign commercial ventures inside Russia, to think he would respect (in the western sense of respect that implies honour) any ventures in a country he does not even believe has a right to exist, is pure folly.
Nevertheless I do fully concur with VDH that the commercial concession should proceed if for no reason other than to see how things play out in an actual armistice or peace negotiation with Putin.
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@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
Yup totally. And Zelenskyy asked Vance his thoughts on Putin’s repeated violations of previous diplomacy and cease fires to which Vance threw a tantrum about not saying thank you. Vance should’ve said something simple about how this time it’ll be different because we have a leader that will enforce security agreements. Even Trump during the meeting said he’s the toughest person in the world but that he doesn’t want for it to come to that.
What part of "already agreed upon " don't you understand? Zelensky was supposed to come to the Whitehouse, do a photo-op with a few questions, handle things a bit diplomatically and then he could bring up any concerns in a private luncheon.
Instead, he shows up to the Whitehouse looking like he's going to a Romanian Rave and runs his mouth where he didn't need to go. J.D. jumped on him (maybe because J.D. is a Marine and already a little pissed at the guy) and Trump weighed in like grandpa telling one of the neighbor's kids how the calf ate the cabbage. Then, Trump basically told him to get his butt outta there. No deal, no meal. Buy your own damn lunch.
Maybe you've worked remote for so long, you've forgotten how business works or you simply hate Trump so much you're biased. When you are the weak side of the deal, you get the best deal you can. You don't do anything to screw up your side of the table. Zelensky screwed the pooch.
And for all you folks with your bullshit analysis, let's boil this down to simple facts: Either a deal is cut with Trump's help or the Europeans have to step in and rescue Ukraine. The first is possible and the second ain't happening. Those are your choices, if you wish Ukraine to survive as an independent nation.
So get your big girl panties on, quit sniping from the peanut gallery and decide what the fuck you want. Binary choice.
Pick one.
wrote 14 days ago last edited by@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
And for all you folks with your bullshit analysis, let's boil this down to simple facts: Either a deal is cut with Trump's help or the Europeans have to step in and rescue Ukraine. The first is possible and the second ain't happening. Those are your choices, if you wish Ukraine to survive as an independent nation.
So get your big girl panties on, quit sniping from the peanut gallery and decide what the fuck you want. Binary choice.
Pick one.
Again, an absolute plethora of worthless a analysis, mostly based on "why I don't like Trump".
See the quote above. THIS is where you're at. THIS is where Zelensky is at.
Binary choice.
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@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
SecState's take:
Link to videoInteresting interview. The lady is asking what everyone is thinking, including Zelenskyy. “Marco Rubio, even you’ve said Putin is a butcher and absolutely can’t be trusted in negotiations” and his response keeps coming back to “yeah but Trump is a deal maker”, what does that meeaannnnnn?? That’s the whole point.
What does it mean? It means are you ready to eliminate him? If not, then you have to find some sort of workable deal.
So which is it?
wrote 14 days ago last edited by@LuFins-Dad said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
SecState's take:
Link to videoInteresting interview. The lady is asking what everyone is thinking, including Zelenskyy. “Marco Rubio, even you’ve said Putin is a butcher and absolutely can’t be trusted in negotiations” and his response keeps coming back to “yeah but Trump is a deal maker”, what does that meeaannnnnn?? That’s the whole point.
What does it mean? It means are you ready to eliminate him? If not, then you have to find some sort of workable deal.
So which is it?
It means you don’t negotiate with him, perhaps. We and the rest of the international community sanction and pressure the living crap out of Russia until they stop their murderous invasion.
