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  3. Impeach!

Impeach!

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  • 8 89th
    11 Jan 2021, 01:09

    @george-k said in Impeach!:

    Other than pure vindictiveness, what's the point?

    I think it’s important for the history books to document that there were repercussions to a sitting president who refused to accept a free and fair election that he lost, lied about fraud and it being stolen, and incited a mob that invaded the Capitol.

    C Offline
    C Offline
    Catseye3
    wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 18:34 last edited by
    #61

    @89th said in Impeach!:

    think it’s important for the history books to document that there were repercussions to a sitting president who . . . incited a mob that invaded the Capitol.

    This, to answer George's why questions. Are the American people expected to make no response to the Jan 7 debacle?

    Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

    J 1 Reply Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 18:47
    • C Offline
      C Offline
      Catseye3
      wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 18:46 last edited by
      #62

      But more to George's points:

      From Andrew Sullivan's essay on the subject of impeachment and removal: "Most obvious is the issue of time. There are only nine days remaining in the president’s term. It is not enough time to execute a credible process of impeachment and removal.

      "It would be rational to start down that road only if Congress had concluded that the nation could not tolerate one more minute of Trump’s presidency. But House Democrats, the main proponents of impeachment, haven’t acted that way. They went home after the siege. They did not stay in town or rush back. At this point, they could not reconvene before Tuesday – probably later. More than a week would have lapsed. How could they credibly claim a need to dispense with all due process and rush to judgment when they have spent days sitting on their hands as if there were no emergency?

      Then there are the Senate rules. Because the upper chamber is in recess until Jan. 19, it would take unanimous consent to reconvene. At least one senator would object, so that’s a non-starter. Practically speaking, even if the House rushed through the adoption of impeachment articles and appointed impeachment managers, a trial could not commence until right before or, much more likely, after Trump’s term expires at noon on Jan. 20."

      Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

      1 Reply Last reply
      • C Catseye3
        11 Jan 2021, 18:34

        @89th said in Impeach!:

        think it’s important for the history books to document that there were repercussions to a sitting president who . . . incited a mob that invaded the Capitol.

        This, to answer George's why questions. Are the American people expected to make no response to the Jan 7 debacle?

        J Offline
        J Offline
        Jolly
        wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 18:47 last edited by
        #63

        @catseye3 said in Impeach!:

        @89th said in Impeach!:

        think it’s important for the history books to document that there were repercussions to a sitting president who . . . incited a mob that invaded the Capitol.

        This, to answer George's why questions. Are the American people expected to make no response to the Jan 7 debacle?

        The American people aren't all that concerned, unless they are part of the chattering class. I think many, if not most people recognize it for what it was and have little desire to let the MSM think for them.

        “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

        Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

        1 Reply Last reply
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          H Offline
          Horace
          wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 18:59 last edited by
          #64

          It was certainly a tragic, idiotic raid of the Capitol, but the handwringing over it, and not over the wider spread and higher death/economic toll riots of 2020 strikes me clearly as special pleading and opportunism.

          To think the raid isn't a clear and established loss for Trump and his supporters is ridiculous. To say "there must be consequences" and imply there aren't any unless an impeachment happens, is also ridiculous.

          Education is extremely important.

          X 1 Reply Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 19:04
          • H Horace
            11 Jan 2021, 18:59

            It was certainly a tragic, idiotic raid of the Capitol, but the handwringing over it, and not over the wider spread and higher death/economic toll riots of 2020 strikes me clearly as special pleading and opportunism.

            To think the raid isn't a clear and established loss for Trump and his supporters is ridiculous. To say "there must be consequences" and imply there aren't any unless an impeachment happens, is also ridiculous.

            X Offline
            X Offline
            xenon
            wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 19:04 last edited by xenon 1 Nov 2021, 19:07
            #65

            @horace said in Impeach!:

            It was certainly a tragic, idiotic raid of the Capitol, but the handwringing over it, and not over the wider spread and higher death/economic toll riots of 2020 strikes me clearly as special pleading and opportunism.

            To think the raid isn't a clear and established loss for Trump and his supporters is ridiculous. To say "there must be consequences" and imply there aren't any unless an impeachment happens, is also ridiculous.

            I wasn’t for impeachment at first. I was viewing Jan 6 as a singular event.

            If you broaden your scope to his rhetoric on willfully misleading people on the election being stolen - then you can make a case that there should be political consequences for that.

            If you tell people the election was stolen (especially when you have next to zero evidence to that effect) - it’s reasonable to expect some people will think an insurrection is justified.

            Basically - you can’t kneecap peoples’ beliefs in the legitimacy of our elections on a selfish whim.

            H C 2 Replies Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 19:08
            • X xenon
              11 Jan 2021, 19:04

              @horace said in Impeach!:

              It was certainly a tragic, idiotic raid of the Capitol, but the handwringing over it, and not over the wider spread and higher death/economic toll riots of 2020 strikes me clearly as special pleading and opportunism.

              To think the raid isn't a clear and established loss for Trump and his supporters is ridiculous. To say "there must be consequences" and imply there aren't any unless an impeachment happens, is also ridiculous.

              I wasn’t for impeachment at first. I was viewing Jan 6 as a singular event.

              If you broaden your scope to his rhetoric on willfully misleading people on the election being stolen - then you can make a case that there should be political consequences for that.

              If you tell people the election was stolen (especially when you have next to zero evidence to that effect) - it’s reasonable to expect some people will think an insurrection is justified.

              Basically - you can’t kneecap peoples’ beliefs in the legitimacy of our elections on a selfish whim.

              H Offline
              H Offline
              Horace
              wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 19:08 last edited by
              #66

              @xenon said in Impeach!:

              @horace said in Impeach!:

              It was certainly a tragic, idiotic raid of the Capitol, but the handwringing over it, and not over the wider spread and higher death/economic toll riots of 2020 strikes me clearly as special pleading and opportunism.

              To think the raid isn't a clear and established loss for Trump and his supporters is ridiculous. To say "there must be consequences" and imply there aren't any unless an impeachment happens, is also ridiculous.

              I wasn’t for impeachment at first. I was viewing Jan 6 as a singular event.

              If you broaden your scope to his rhetoric on willfully misleading people on the election being stolen - then you can make a case that there should be political consequences for that.

              If you tell people the election was stolen (especially when you have next to zero evidence to that effect) - it’s reasonable to expect some people will think an insurrection is justified.

              Yes as it turns out, that rhetoric was inflammatory to an extent I wasn't anticipating. Impeach him if you will, but to think he and his supporters haven't already suffered a massive political/cultural loss by that idiocy is not in keeping with reality.

              Education is extremely important.

              X 1 Reply Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 19:15
              • L Offline
                L Offline
                Loki
                wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 19:13 last edited by
                #67

                Do what you want Nancy but weigh the pros and cons of Biden being effective go forward.

                In no case will Trump be impeached before he leaves.

                So is it worth it to take up right after the inauguration or as Clyborn suggests in 100 days.

                C 1 Reply Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 20:03
                • H Horace
                  11 Jan 2021, 19:08

                  @xenon said in Impeach!:

                  @horace said in Impeach!:

                  It was certainly a tragic, idiotic raid of the Capitol, but the handwringing over it, and not over the wider spread and higher death/economic toll riots of 2020 strikes me clearly as special pleading and opportunism.

                  To think the raid isn't a clear and established loss for Trump and his supporters is ridiculous. To say "there must be consequences" and imply there aren't any unless an impeachment happens, is also ridiculous.

                  I wasn’t for impeachment at first. I was viewing Jan 6 as a singular event.

                  If you broaden your scope to his rhetoric on willfully misleading people on the election being stolen - then you can make a case that there should be political consequences for that.

                  If you tell people the election was stolen (especially when you have next to zero evidence to that effect) - it’s reasonable to expect some people will think an insurrection is justified.

                  Yes as it turns out, that rhetoric was inflammatory to an extent I wasn't anticipating. Impeach him if you will, but to think he and his supporters haven't already suffered a massive political/cultural loss by that idiocy is not in keeping with reality.

                  X Offline
                  X Offline
                  xenon
                  wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 19:15 last edited by
                  #68

                  @horace said in Impeach!:

                  @xenon said in Impeach!:

                  @horace said in Impeach!:

                  It was certainly a tragic, idiotic raid of the Capitol, but the handwringing over it, and not over the wider spread and higher death/economic toll riots of 2020 strikes me clearly as special pleading and opportunism.

                  To think the raid isn't a clear and established loss for Trump and his supporters is ridiculous. To say "there must be consequences" and imply there aren't any unless an impeachment happens, is also ridiculous.

                  I wasn’t for impeachment at first. I was viewing Jan 6 as a singular event.

                  If you broaden your scope to his rhetoric on willfully misleading people on the election being stolen - then you can make a case that there should be political consequences for that.

                  If you tell people the election was stolen (especially when you have next to zero evidence to that effect) - it’s reasonable to expect some people will think an insurrection is justified.

                  Yes as it turns out, that rhetoric was inflammatory to an extent I wasn't anticipating. Impeach him if you will, but to think he and his supporters haven't already suffered a massive political/cultural loss by that idiocy is not in keeping with reality.

                  I also don’t think it helps unify at all (which is what we somehow need). The practical effect will be to raise the temperature.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • K Offline
                    K Offline
                    kluurs
                    wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 19:20 last edited by
                    #69

                    In some ways, I would hope that if a trial reaches the Senate, that part of the defense would be to either validate or invalidate the President's assertions. Thus, if he "won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes," his actions and those of his followers were appropriate to invalidate a "rigged election". If as the Republican Attorney General and judges assert that there were only a handful (i.e. less than 10) fraudulant votes, then he should be convicted and sent to prison for a reasonable period of time.

                    J 1 Reply Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 19:36
                    • M Offline
                      M Offline
                      Mik
                      wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 19:20 last edited by Mik 1 Nov 2021, 19:22
                      #70

                      @Xenon

                      Yep. To ask the GOP to unify with you after four years of what we have seen is absurd. The Dems will have to hold out a real olive branch first. Impeachment is not it.

                      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • K kluurs
                        11 Jan 2021, 19:20

                        In some ways, I would hope that if a trial reaches the Senate, that part of the defense would be to either validate or invalidate the President's assertions. Thus, if he "won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes," his actions and those of his followers were appropriate to invalidate a "rigged election". If as the Republican Attorney General and judges assert that there were only a handful (i.e. less than 10) fraudulant votes, then he should be convicted and sent to prison for a reasonable period of time.

                        J Offline
                        J Offline
                        Jolly
                        wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 19:36 last edited by
                        #71

                        @kluurs said in Impeach!:

                        In some ways, I would hope that if a trial reaches the Senate, that part of the defense would be to either validate or invalidate the President's assertions. Thus, if he "won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes," his actions and those of his followers were appropriate to invalidate a "rigged election". If as the Republican Attorney General and judges assert that there were only a handful (i.e. less than 10) fraudulant votes, then he should be convicted and sent to prison for a reasonable period of time.

                        I'm no hothead, but if you put Trump in jail, you better be prepared to fight.

                        “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                        Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                        K T 2 Replies Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 19:41
                        • X Offline
                          X Offline
                          xenon
                          wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 19:36 last edited by xenon 1 Nov 2021, 19:37
                          #72

                          Contextualizing Watergate.

                          Nixon resigning (when sentiment and the impeachment math turned against him) and Ford pardoning him both take a certain amount of political courage to do.

                          Both actions seem unfathomable today.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • J Jolly
                            11 Jan 2021, 19:36

                            @kluurs said in Impeach!:

                            In some ways, I would hope that if a trial reaches the Senate, that part of the defense would be to either validate or invalidate the President's assertions. Thus, if he "won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes," his actions and those of his followers were appropriate to invalidate a "rigged election". If as the Republican Attorney General and judges assert that there were only a handful (i.e. less than 10) fraudulant votes, then he should be convicted and sent to prison for a reasonable period of time.

                            I'm no hothead, but if you put Trump in jail, you better be prepared to fight.

                            K Offline
                            K Offline
                            kluurs
                            wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 19:41 last edited by
                            #73

                            @jolly said in Impeach!:

                            s the Senate, that part of the defense would be to either validate or invalidate the President's assertions. Thus, if he "won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes," his actions and those of his followers were appropriate to invalidate a "rigged election". If as the Republican Attorney General and judges assert that there were only a handful (i.e. less than 10) fraudulant votes, then he should be convicted and sent to prison for a reasonable period of time.

                            But since he is both certain the election was stolen and that he can prove it, he would have nothing to worry about. Only if he were lying would jail time be an issue.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • X xenon
                              11 Jan 2021, 19:04

                              @horace said in Impeach!:

                              It was certainly a tragic, idiotic raid of the Capitol, but the handwringing over it, and not over the wider spread and higher death/economic toll riots of 2020 strikes me clearly as special pleading and opportunism.

                              To think the raid isn't a clear and established loss for Trump and his supporters is ridiculous. To say "there must be consequences" and imply there aren't any unless an impeachment happens, is also ridiculous.

                              I wasn’t for impeachment at first. I was viewing Jan 6 as a singular event.

                              If you broaden your scope to his rhetoric on willfully misleading people on the election being stolen - then you can make a case that there should be political consequences for that.

                              If you tell people the election was stolen (especially when you have next to zero evidence to that effect) - it’s reasonable to expect some people will think an insurrection is justified.

                              Basically - you can’t kneecap peoples’ beliefs in the legitimacy of our elections on a selfish whim.

                              C Offline
                              C Offline
                              Copper
                              wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 20:00 last edited by
                              #74

                              @xenon said in Impeach!:

                              If you broaden your scope to his rhetoric on willfully misleading people on the election being stolen - then you can make a case that there should be political consequences for that.

                              Great idea, let's start punishing politicians for life if they try to spin a story to their favor.

                              There won't be a politician left standing.

                              OK, by me.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • L Loki
                                11 Jan 2021, 19:13

                                Do what you want Nancy but weigh the pros and cons of Biden being effective go forward.

                                In no case will Trump be impeached before he leaves.

                                So is it worth it to take up right after the inauguration or as Clyborn suggests in 100 days.

                                C Offline
                                C Offline
                                Copper
                                wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 20:03 last edited by
                                #75

                                @loki said in Impeach!:

                                So is it worth it to take up right after the inauguration or as Clyborn suggests in 100 days.

                                Anything that can distract attention from Joe's dementia is good for the democrats. If they can keep the Trump impeachment trial going for 4 years it will help the cause.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • J Jolly
                                  11 Jan 2021, 19:36

                                  @kluurs said in Impeach!:

                                  In some ways, I would hope that if a trial reaches the Senate, that part of the defense would be to either validate or invalidate the President's assertions. Thus, if he "won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes," his actions and those of his followers were appropriate to invalidate a "rigged election". If as the Republican Attorney General and judges assert that there were only a handful (i.e. less than 10) fraudulant votes, then he should be convicted and sent to prison for a reasonable period of time.

                                  I'm no hothead, but if you put Trump in jail, you better be prepared to fight.

                                  T Offline
                                  T Offline
                                  taiwan_girl
                                  wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 15:22 last edited by
                                  #76

                                  @jolly said in Impeach!:

                                  @kluurs said in Impeach!:

                                  In some ways, I would hope that if a trial reaches the Senate, that part of the defense would be to either validate or invalidate the President's assertions. Thus, if he "won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes," his actions and those of his followers were appropriate to invalidate a "rigged election". If as the Republican Attorney General and judges assert that there were only a handful (i.e. less than 10) fraudulant votes, then he should be convicted and sent to prison for a reasonable period of time.

                                  I'm no hothead, but if you put Trump in jail, you better be prepared to fight.

                                  Why? If the court system goes through the process and he is found guilty of some crime that causes him to go to jail, why would you fight for that?

                                  (BTW, I do not think there should be impeachment. Let him "go into the sunset")

                                  J J 2 Replies Last reply 12 Jan 2021, 15:26
                                  • T taiwan_girl
                                    12 Jan 2021, 15:22

                                    @jolly said in Impeach!:

                                    @kluurs said in Impeach!:

                                    In some ways, I would hope that if a trial reaches the Senate, that part of the defense would be to either validate or invalidate the President's assertions. Thus, if he "won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes," his actions and those of his followers were appropriate to invalidate a "rigged election". If as the Republican Attorney General and judges assert that there were only a handful (i.e. less than 10) fraudulant votes, then he should be convicted and sent to prison for a reasonable period of time.

                                    I'm no hothead, but if you put Trump in jail, you better be prepared to fight.

                                    Why? If the court system goes through the process and he is found guilty of some crime that causes him to go to jail, why would you fight for that?

                                    (BTW, I do not think there should be impeachment. Let him "go into the sunset")

                                    J Offline
                                    J Offline
                                    jodi
                                    wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 15:26 last edited by
                                    #77

                                    @taiwan_girl that man will never go into the sunset. (Impeaching him may make things worse, though). Some day it will be fascinating to look back at all of this. What we got right, what we screwed up.

                                    A 1 Reply Last reply 12 Jan 2021, 15:59
                                    • J jodi
                                      12 Jan 2021, 15:26

                                      @taiwan_girl that man will never go into the sunset. (Impeaching him may make things worse, though). Some day it will be fascinating to look back at all of this. What we got right, what we screwed up.

                                      A Offline
                                      A Offline
                                      Aqua Letifer
                                      wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 15:59 last edited by
                                      #78

                                      @jodi said in Impeach!:

                                      @taiwan_girl that man will never go into the sunset. (Impeaching him may make things worse, though). Some day it will be fascinating to look back at all of this. What we got right, what we screwed up.

                                      I'm worried the most about that. The people who are going to decide where we go next are us, not our leaders.

                                      Please love yourself.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • C Offline
                                        C Offline
                                        Catseye3
                                        wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 16:35 last edited by
                                        #79

                                        I have no agenda on Trump. Impeach, don't impeach, I don't care. I want him GONE, period.

                                        GEE OH ENN EEE.

                                        Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • T taiwan_girl
                                          12 Jan 2021, 15:22

                                          @jolly said in Impeach!:

                                          @kluurs said in Impeach!:

                                          In some ways, I would hope that if a trial reaches the Senate, that part of the defense would be to either validate or invalidate the President's assertions. Thus, if he "won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes," his actions and those of his followers were appropriate to invalidate a "rigged election". If as the Republican Attorney General and judges assert that there were only a handful (i.e. less than 10) fraudulant votes, then he should be convicted and sent to prison for a reasonable period of time.

                                          I'm no hothead, but if you put Trump in jail, you better be prepared to fight.

                                          Why? If the court system goes through the process and he is found guilty of some crime that causes him to go to jail, why would you fight for that?

                                          (BTW, I do not think there should be impeachment. Let him "go into the sunset")

                                          J Offline
                                          J Offline
                                          Jolly
                                          wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 16:49 last edited by Jolly 1 Dec 2021, 16:49
                                          #80

                                          @taiwan_girl said in Impeach!:

                                          @jolly said in Impeach!:

                                          @kluurs said in Impeach!:

                                          In some ways, I would hope that if a trial reaches the Senate, that part of the defense would be to either validate or invalidate the President's assertions. Thus, if he "won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes," his actions and those of his followers were appropriate to invalidate a "rigged election". If as the Republican Attorney General and judges assert that there were only a handful (i.e. less than 10) fraudulant votes, then he should be convicted and sent to prison for a reasonable period of time.

                                          I'm no hothead, but if you put Trump in jail, you better be prepared to fight.

                                          Why? If the court system goes through the process and he is found guilty of some crime that causes him to go to jail, why would you fight for that?

                                          (BTW, I do not think there should be impeachment. Let him "go into the sunset")

                                          There is nothing that Trump has done that rises to the level of a crime. To try and convict him of such is pure power politics. Banana republic or Soviet style politics.

                                          The Left is already trying to silence Conservative voices in any way possible. Convicting somebody, including a former POTUS, of nonexistent crines mere for show, is a tipping point.

                                          You want armed insurrection? You want a hot war?

                                          Keep kicking that can down the road...

                                          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

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