Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.
So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?
That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?
And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.
No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.
An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.
You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.
So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?
That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?
And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.
No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.
An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.
You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.
Stop digging yourself deeper than you already are. Projection and deflection won’t work here.
Nobody with any understanding of Russia expects a Western progressive to replace the tyrant in the Kremlin. That horse left the barn and died a miserable death sometime during Yeltsin’s second term in the 1990s. The best we can hope for is someone like Putin appeared to be during his first term. Preferably someone whose prior profession was something other than a KGB or FSB hood.
Elbows up!
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@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
I think you have difficulty conceptualizing a situation where there is no powerful law enforcer who can enforce what is or is not fair.
And people like you would have seen Britain surrender to the Nazis, because you'd have difficulty conceptualising a situation where they could beat the motherfuckers.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
I think you have difficulty conceptualizing a situation where there is no powerful law enforcer who can enforce what is or is not fair.
And people like you would have seen Britain surrender to the Nazis, because you'd have difficulty conceptualising a situation where they could beat the motherfuckers.
But see, that's an actual argument. If you would like to go with "but Ukraine can win", then great. At least it's an argument. Not one I've seen any informed person agree with, but it's an argument.
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@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.
So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?
That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?
And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.
No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.
An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.
You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.
Stop digging yourself deeper than you already are. Projection and deflection won’t work here.
Nobody with any understanding of Russia expects a Western progressive to replace the tyrant in the Kremlin. That horse left the barn and died a miserable death sometime during Yeltsin’s second term in the 1990s. The best we can hope for is someone like Putin appeared to be during his first term. Preferably someone whose prior profession was something other than a KGB or FSB hood.
@Renauda said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.
So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?
That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?
And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.
No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.
An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.
You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.
Stop digging yourself deeper than you already are. Projection and deflection won’t work here.
Nobody with any understanding of Russia expects a Western progressive to replace the tyrant in the Kremlin. That horse left the barn and died a miserable death sometime during Yeltsin’s second term in the 1990s. The best we can hope for is someone like Putin appeared to be during his first term. Preferably someone whose prior profession was something other than a KGB or FSB hood.
I thought it was obvious I was presenting it as a fanciful scenario. That is what deus ex machina means. But you go ahead and dunk on it. Well played.
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So would it still be “‘moralistic garbage” and “the rhetorical currency of globalists” if Ukraine assigns its natural resources’ receivables over to the US as per Trump’s proposed contract?
Would the USA suddenly then acquire vital strategic interests in guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty and security?
Sorry, but Baby Face Vance’s spin is pretty thin gruel.
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Alternative: Ukraine stands long enough to outlive Putin. Putin's expansionist dream pinned down by Ukrainian resistance. Rest of world essentially safe from Putin's ambition.
Ukraine does not need to "win." It just need to pin Putin's Russia down in one place for as long as Putin rules Russia. Figure out the rest when Russia gets a new leader.
Good enough?
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Alternative: Ukraine stands long enough to outlive Putin. Putin's expansionist dream pinned down by Ukrainian resistance. Rest of world essentially safe from Putin's ambition.
Ukraine does not need to "win." It just need to pin Putin's Russia down in one place for as long as Putin rules Russia. Figure out the rest when Russia gets a new leader.
Good enough?
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Something to consider, next time some of y'all get the vapors over tariffs, especially tariffs which protect strategic industries... Ukraine should be primarily a European problem, but the Europeans have chosen butter over guns for so long, they have no significant stocks of weapons to send the Ukranians.
They don't even have enough weapons to defend themselves.
The Brits couldn't put 50 MBTs in the field if you held a gun to their heads. France gutted their military and is just now crawling back to first world status. The Germans are also behind in equipment and their army is small and undertrained.
If the Europeans don't take Putin seriously, why are we the cop on the street?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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Something to consider, next time some of y'all get the vapors over tariffs, especially tariffs which protect strategic industries... Ukraine should be primarily a European problem, but the Europeans have chosen butter over guns for so long, they have no significant stocks of weapons to send the Ukranians.
They don't even have enough weapons to defend themselves.
The Brits couldn't put 50 MBTs in the field if you held a gun to their heads. France gutted their military and is just now crawling back to first world status. The Germans are also behind in equipment and their army is small and undertrained.
If the Europeans don't take Putin seriously, why are we the cop on the street?
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According to your graph the US has provided 75.1 billion EUR in aid. 1 EUR = 1.05 USD
Trump claims 350 billion USD has been provided and his proposal that demands an indemnity (actually, reparations) in natural resource concessions of 500 billion USD.
From what tree did Trump pull his numbers?
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
And as for criticising Zelensky for not holding elections. Presumably, Trump is looking to overlook the savagery and barbarity with which his friend Putin assures his own election victories?
WTF is wrong with the guy?
Or am I completely wrong about this? Maybe it's time for that great American conservative Tucker Carlson to go on another fact finding mission and marvel at the price of Russian eggs?
He's decided to end this war. Zelensky is currently polling below 10% He using that as a hammer to make Ukraine sign off on a peace proposal.
Is that right? Maybe not. Is it effective in ending this war? Perhaps.
@Jolly said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
And as for criticising Zelensky for not holding elections. Presumably, Trump is looking to overlook the savagery and barbarity with which his friend Putin assures his own election victories?
WTF is wrong with the guy?
Or am I completely wrong about this? Maybe it's time for that great American conservative Tucker Carlson to go on another fact finding mission and marvel at the price of Russian eggs?
He's decided to end this war. Zelensky is currently polling below 10% He using that as a hammer to make Ukraine sign off on a peace proposal.
Is that right? Maybe not. Is it effective in ending this war? Perhaps.
Actually, Zelenskyy is polling at 50%, and the numbers are increasing since Trump started attacking him.
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Something to consider, next time some of y'all get the vapors over tariffs, especially tariffs which protect strategic industries... Ukraine should be primarily a European problem, but the Europeans have chosen butter over guns for so long, they have no significant stocks of weapons to send the Ukranians.
They don't even have enough weapons to defend themselves.
The Brits couldn't put 50 MBTs in the field if you held a gun to their heads. France gutted their military and is just now crawling back to first world status. The Germans are also behind in equipment and their army is small and undertrained.
If the Europeans don't take Putin seriously, why are we the cop on the street?
@Jolly said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
Something to consider, next time some of y'all get the vapors over tariffs, especially tariffs which protect strategic industries... Ukraine should be primarily a European problem, but the Europeans have chosen butter over guns for so long, they have no significant stocks of weapons to send the Ukranians.
They don't even have enough weapons to defend themselves.
The Brits couldn't put 50 MBTs in the field if you held a gun to their heads. France gutted their military and is just now crawling back to first world status. The Germans are also behind in equipment and their army is small and undertrained.
If the Europeans don't take Putin seriously, why are we the cop on the street?
Why are we pushing NATO and Europe to increase spending to 5% while we are at 3.6%? And Hegseth just announced that they are going to cut departments by 8% each and every year… Now, it’s possible that they want to reinvest those savings in other military assets. Maybe our own Iron Dome, but that’s something to watch.
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The only impediment to Ukraine’s agreement to the US proposal for a mineral concession is that the current draft does not explicitly contain US security guarantees for Ukraine. It is up to Trump make that one concession to Ukraine in order to make it a done deal.
Other than Putin probably finding it objectionable, why the reluctance?
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Why are we pushing Europe to 5%? Because 5% will probably supply enough combat power that they can defend themselves.
Follow the current German/French consortium on a new MBT? They've just about got it finalized and Rheinmetal has chucked a monkey wrench into the whole thing.
They can't help themselves and I think Americans are getting tired of carrying their load.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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Why are we pushing Europe to 5%? Because 5% will probably supply enough combat power that they can defend themselves.
Follow the current German/French consortium on a new MBT? They've just about got it finalized and Rheinmetal has chucked a monkey wrench into the whole thing.
They can't help themselves and I think Americans are getting tired of carrying their load.
@Jolly said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
Why are we pushing Europe to 5%? Because 5% will probably supply enough combat power that they can defend themselves.
Follow the current German/French consortium on a new MBT? They've just about got it finalized and Rheinmetal has chucked a monkey wrench into the whole thing.
They can't help themselves and I think Americans are getting tired of carrying their load.
Who do the Europeans need to defend themselves from?
If it’s mostly the Russians, doesn’t depleting their military lower the spend you need in the long run?
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Ukraine surrenders or the US pulls out of Europe. https://www.kyivpost.com/post/47574
