Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky

[Doctor Phibes]

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reining in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

[Renauda]

@Jolly

Zelensky is currently polling below 10%

Did you pull that off a Rumble site or directly from the Russian Foreign Ministry site?

In any case you are quite mislead on this as Phibes already pointed out.

[Horace]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

[Renauda]

@Horace

. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion.

Convince me. All you are peddling is that Ukraine unconditionally surrender to all the Kremlin’s demands. There won’t even be a sovereign rump left of the Ukrainian state when it’s over. It will be the Kremlin’s puppet.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

[Horace]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

[xenon]

The issue is that the “negotiated” settlement still results Ukrainians being “pacified” by the Russians. Pretty much same result as a prolonged war of attrition - except maybe the fighters just get blindfolded and executed.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

It's really not about what I want, or what you want, or even what Donald Trump wants. Surely, it's about what Ukrainians want. They are the innocent victims here.

Is anybody asking them? You seem keener to tell them that it's in everybody's best interest if they capitulate.

[Horace]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

It's really not about what I want, or what you want, or even what Donald Trump wants. Surely, it's about what Ukrainians want. They are the innocent victims here.

Is anybody asking them? You seem keener to tell them.

I think you have difficulty conceptualizing a situation where there is no powerful law enforcer who can enforce what is or is not fair.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

I think you have difficulty conceptualizing a situation where there is no powerful law enforcer who can enforce what is or is not fair.

And people like you would have seen Britain surrender to the Nazis, because you'd have difficulty conceptualising a situation where they could beat the motherfuckers.

[Renauda]

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

Stop digging yourself deeper than you already are. Projection and deflection won’t work here.

Nobody with any understanding of Russia expects a Western progressive to replace the tyrant in the Kremlin. That horse left the barn and died a miserable death sometime during Yeltsin’s second term in the 1990s. The best we can hope for is someone like Putin appeared to be during his first term. Preferably someone whose prior profession was something other than a KGB or FSB hood.

[Horace]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

I think you have difficulty conceptualizing a situation where there is no powerful law enforcer who can enforce what is or is not fair.

And people like you would have seen Britain surrender to the Nazis, because you'd have difficulty conceptualising a situation where they could beat the motherfuckers.

But see, that's an actual argument. If you would like to go with "but Ukraine can win", then great. At least it's an argument. Not one I've seen any informed person agree with, but it's an argument.

[Horace]

@Renauda said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

Stop digging yourself deeper than you already are. Projection and deflection won’t work here.

Nobody with any understanding of Russia expects a Western progressive to replace the tyrant in the Kremlin. That horse left the barn and died a miserable death sometime during Yeltsin’s second term in the 1990s. The best we can hope for is someone like Putin appeared to be during his first term. Preferably someone whose prior profession was something other than a KGB or FSB hood.

I thought it was obvious I was presenting it as a fanciful scenario. That is what deus ex machina means. But you go ahead and dunk on it. Well played.

[Renauda]

I gladly will and, I will add, with deserved impunity,

[Horace]

I came across this exchange between Niall Ferguson and JD Vance. Looks familiar.

[Renauda]

@Horace

So would it still be “‘moralistic garbage” and “the rhetorical currency of globalists” if Ukraine assigns its natural resources’ receivables over to the US as per Trump’s proposed contract?

Would the USA suddenly then acquire vital strategic interests in guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty and security?

Sorry, but Baby Face Vance’s spin is pretty thin gruel.

[Axtremus]

Alternative: Ukraine stands long enough to outlive Putin. Putin's expansionist dream pinned down by Ukrainian resistance. Rest of world essentially safe from Putin's ambition.

Ukraine does not need to "win." It just need to pin Putin's Russia down in one place for as long as Putin rules Russia. Figure out the rest when Russia gets a new leader.

Good enough?

[Horace]

@Axtremus That's a plan, to be weighed against other plans. At least it's a plan.

[Jolly]

Something to consider, next time some of y'all get the vapors over tariffs, especially tariffs which protect strategic industries... Ukraine should be primarily a European problem, but the Europeans have chosen butter over guns for so long, they have no significant stocks of weapons to send the Ukranians.

They don't even have enough weapons to defend themselves.

The Brits couldn't put 50 MBTs in the field if you held a gun to their heads. France gutted their military and is just now crawling back to first world status. The Germans are also behind in equipment and their army is small and undertrained.

If the Europeans don't take Putin seriously, why are we the cop on the street?

[Doctor Phibes]