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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky

Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky

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  • HoraceH Horace

    @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

    @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

    @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

    But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

    So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

    That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

    And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

    No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

    Doctor PhibesD Offline
    Doctor PhibesD Offline
    Doctor Phibes
    wrote on last edited by
    #36

    @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

    @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

    @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

    @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

    But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

    So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

    That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

    And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

    No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

    An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

    I was only joking

    HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
    • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

      @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

      @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

      @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

      @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

      But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

      So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

      That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

      And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

      No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

      An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

      HoraceH Offline
      HoraceH Offline
      Horace
      wrote on last edited by
      #37

      @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

      @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

      @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

      @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

      @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

      But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

      So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

      That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

      And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

      No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

      An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

      You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

      Education is extremely important.

      Doctor PhibesD RenaudaR 2 Replies Last reply
      • X Offline
        X Offline
        xenon
        wrote on last edited by xenon
        #38

        The issue is that the “negotiated” settlement still results Ukrainians being “pacified” by the Russians. Pretty much same result as a prolonged war of attrition - except maybe the fighters just get blindfolded and executed.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • HoraceH Horace

          @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

          @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

          @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

          @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

          @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

          But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

          So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

          That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

          And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

          No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

          An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

          You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

          Doctor PhibesD Offline
          Doctor PhibesD Offline
          Doctor Phibes
          wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
          #39

          @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

          @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

          @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

          @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

          @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

          @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

          But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

          So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

          That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

          And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

          No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

          An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

          You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

          It's really not about what I want, or what you want, or even what Donald Trump wants. Surely, it's about what Ukrainians want. They are the innocent victims here.

          Is anybody asking them? You seem keener to tell them that it's in everybody's best interest if they capitulate.

          I was only joking

          HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
          • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

            @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

            @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

            @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

            @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

            @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

            @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

            But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

            So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

            That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

            And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

            No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

            An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

            You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

            It's really not about what I want, or what you want, or even what Donald Trump wants. Surely, it's about what Ukrainians want. They are the innocent victims here.

            Is anybody asking them? You seem keener to tell them that it's in everybody's best interest if they capitulate.

            HoraceH Offline
            HoraceH Offline
            Horace
            wrote on last edited by
            #40

            @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

            @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

            @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

            @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

            @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

            @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

            @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

            But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

            So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

            That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

            And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

            No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

            An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

            You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

            It's really not about what I want, or what you want, or even what Donald Trump wants. Surely, it's about what Ukrainians want. They are the innocent victims here.

            Is anybody asking them? You seem keener to tell them.

            I think you have difficulty conceptualizing a situation where there is no powerful law enforcer who can enforce what is or is not fair.

            Education is extremely important.

            Doctor PhibesD 1 Reply Last reply
            • HoraceH Horace

              @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

              @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

              @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

              @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

              @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

              @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

              @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

              But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

              So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

              That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

              And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

              No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

              An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

              You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

              It's really not about what I want, or what you want, or even what Donald Trump wants. Surely, it's about what Ukrainians want. They are the innocent victims here.

              Is anybody asking them? You seem keener to tell them.

              I think you have difficulty conceptualizing a situation where there is no powerful law enforcer who can enforce what is or is not fair.

              Doctor PhibesD Offline
              Doctor PhibesD Offline
              Doctor Phibes
              wrote on last edited by
              #41

              @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

              I think you have difficulty conceptualizing a situation where there is no powerful law enforcer who can enforce what is or is not fair.

              And people like you would have seen Britain surrender to the Nazis, because you'd have difficulty conceptualising a situation where they could beat the motherfuckers.

              I was only joking

              HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
              • HoraceH Horace

                @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

                But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

                So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

                That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

                And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

                No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

                An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

                You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

                RenaudaR Offline
                RenaudaR Offline
                Renauda
                wrote on last edited by Renauda
                #42

                @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

                But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

                So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

                That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

                And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

                No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

                An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

                You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

                Stop digging yourself deeper than you already are. Projection and deflection won’t work here.

                Nobody with any understanding of Russia expects a Western progressive to replace the tyrant in the Kremlin. That horse left the barn and died a miserable death sometime during Yeltsin’s second term in the 1990s. The best we can hope for is someone like Putin appeared to be during his first term. Preferably someone whose prior profession was something other than a KGB or FSB hood.

                Elbows up!

                HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                  @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                  I think you have difficulty conceptualizing a situation where there is no powerful law enforcer who can enforce what is or is not fair.

                  And people like you would have seen Britain surrender to the Nazis, because you'd have difficulty conceptualising a situation where they could beat the motherfuckers.

                  HoraceH Offline
                  HoraceH Offline
                  Horace
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #43

                  @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                  @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                  I think you have difficulty conceptualizing a situation where there is no powerful law enforcer who can enforce what is or is not fair.

                  And people like you would have seen Britain surrender to the Nazis, because you'd have difficulty conceptualising a situation where they could beat the motherfuckers.

                  But see, that's an actual argument. If you would like to go with "but Ukraine can win", then great. At least it's an argument. Not one I've seen any informed person agree with, but it's an argument.

                  Education is extremely important.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • RenaudaR Renauda

                    @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                    @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                    @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                    @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                    @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                    @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

                    But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

                    So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

                    That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

                    And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

                    No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

                    An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

                    You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

                    Stop digging yourself deeper than you already are. Projection and deflection won’t work here.

                    Nobody with any understanding of Russia expects a Western progressive to replace the tyrant in the Kremlin. That horse left the barn and died a miserable death sometime during Yeltsin’s second term in the 1990s. The best we can hope for is someone like Putin appeared to be during his first term. Preferably someone whose prior profession was something other than a KGB or FSB hood.

                    HoraceH Offline
                    HoraceH Offline
                    Horace
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #44

                    @Renauda said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                    @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                    @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                    @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                    @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                    @Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                    @Doctor-Phibes I think it's cute that you can think deeply enough to interrogate the opinions of others, while you offer literally nothing in the way of an alternative plan that has any hope of ending anywhere but a Russian victory.

                    But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong, please offer an alternative. Or just continue to be baffled at how anybody could possibly not use the right words, that's really the important thing here.

                    So, Trump blames Ukraine for starting this war, and somehow I'm the one in the wrong for pointing out that this is a lie?

                    That's a wild misinterpretation of this conversation. Or maybe you can point to anybody in this thread saying Ukraine started the war?

                    And no, I don't have a solution. And neither do you, so try reigning in the intellectual superiority bullshit for once.

                    No, you'll just happily go along with all the dunking as Trump makes noises towards a negotiated end to the war. Just like the illustrious Bolton, sneering at the idea of Trump "surrendering", while admitting in the same conversation that the other possible end is a Russian victory in a war of attrition. I hope for a negotiated peace, before the war of attrition reaches its inevitable conclusion. I realize those negotiations will get dunked on by all the usual suspects, all along the way, and I realize no negotiations were occurring under Biden. I'll take the faint hope over no hope.

                    An American President bullying the victim in this barbaric situation and quite possibly giving Putin exactly what he wants is not negotiating an end to the war.

                    You clearly don't want to say it out loud, and I don't blame you, but you effectively prefer a prolonged war of attrition, that Ukraine ultimately loses. Or maybe you're hoping for a Deus Ex Machina where Putin dies and a Western progressive rises in his place. I agree that that would be nice.

                    Stop digging yourself deeper than you already are. Projection and deflection won’t work here.

                    Nobody with any understanding of Russia expects a Western progressive to replace the tyrant in the Kremlin. That horse left the barn and died a miserable death sometime during Yeltsin’s second term in the 1990s. The best we can hope for is someone like Putin appeared to be during his first term. Preferably someone whose prior profession was something other than a KGB or FSB hood.

                    I thought it was obvious I was presenting it as a fanciful scenario. That is what deus ex machina means. But you go ahead and dunk on it. Well played.

                    Education is extremely important.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • RenaudaR Offline
                      RenaudaR Offline
                      Renauda
                      wrote on last edited by Renauda
                      #45

                      I gladly will and, I will add, with deserved impunity,

                      Elbows up!

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • HoraceH Offline
                        HoraceH Offline
                        Horace
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #46

                        I came across this exchange between Niall Ferguson and JD Vance. Looks familiar.

                        Education is extremely important.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • RenaudaR Offline
                          RenaudaR Offline
                          Renauda
                          wrote on last edited by Renauda
                          #47

                          @Horace

                          So would it still be “‘moralistic garbage” and “the rhetorical currency of globalists” if Ukraine assigns its natural resources’ receivables over to the US as per Trump’s proposed contract?

                          Would the USA suddenly then acquire vital strategic interests in guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty and security?

                          Sorry, but Baby Face Vance’s spin is pretty thin gruel.

                          Elbows up!

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • AxtremusA Offline
                            AxtremusA Offline
                            Axtremus
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #48

                            Alternative: Ukraine stands long enough to outlive Putin. Putin's expansionist dream pinned down by Ukrainian resistance. Rest of world essentially safe from Putin's ambition.

                            Ukraine does not need to "win." It just need to pin Putin's Russia down in one place for as long as Putin rules Russia. Figure out the rest when Russia gets a new leader.

                            Good enough?

                            HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                            • AxtremusA Axtremus

                              Alternative: Ukraine stands long enough to outlive Putin. Putin's expansionist dream pinned down by Ukrainian resistance. Rest of world essentially safe from Putin's ambition.

                              Ukraine does not need to "win." It just need to pin Putin's Russia down in one place for as long as Putin rules Russia. Figure out the rest when Russia gets a new leader.

                              Good enough?

                              HoraceH Offline
                              HoraceH Offline
                              Horace
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #49

                              @Axtremus That's a plan, to be weighed against other plans. At least it's a plan.

                              Education is extremely important.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • JollyJ Offline
                                JollyJ Offline
                                Jolly
                                wrote on last edited by Jolly
                                #50

                                Something to consider, next time some of y'all get the vapors over tariffs, especially tariffs which protect strategic industries... Ukraine should be primarily a European problem, but the Europeans have chosen butter over guns for so long, they have no significant stocks of weapons to send the Ukranians.

                                They don't even have enough weapons to defend themselves.

                                The Brits couldn't put 50 MBTs in the field if you held a gun to their heads. France gutted their military and is just now crawling back to first world status. The Germans are also behind in equipment and their army is small and undertrained.

                                If the Europeans don't take Putin seriously, why are we the cop on the street?

                                “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                RenaudaR LuFins DadL 2 Replies Last reply
                                • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                                  Doctor PhibesD Offline
                                  Doctor Phibes
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #51

                                  image.png

                                  I was only joking

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • JollyJ Jolly

                                    Something to consider, next time some of y'all get the vapors over tariffs, especially tariffs which protect strategic industries... Ukraine should be primarily a European problem, but the Europeans have chosen butter over guns for so long, they have no significant stocks of weapons to send the Ukranians.

                                    They don't even have enough weapons to defend themselves.

                                    The Brits couldn't put 50 MBTs in the field if you held a gun to their heads. France gutted their military and is just now crawling back to first world status. The Germans are also behind in equipment and their army is small and undertrained.

                                    If the Europeans don't take Putin seriously, why are we the cop on the street?

                                    RenaudaR Offline
                                    RenaudaR Offline
                                    Renauda
                                    wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                    #52

                                    @Jolly

                                    If the Europeans don't take Putin seriously, why are we the cop on the street?

                                    You tell us. You can start with either Yalta or the Truman Doctrine and proceed from there. Your choice.

                                    We’re listening.

                                    Elbows up!

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • JollyJ Offline
                                      JollyJ Offline
                                      Jolly
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #53

                                      https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/

                                      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                                      • JollyJ Jolly

                                        https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/

                                        RenaudaR Offline
                                        RenaudaR Offline
                                        Renauda
                                        wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                        #54

                                        @Jolly

                                        According to your graph the US has provided 75.1 billion EUR in aid. 1 EUR = 1.05 USD

                                        Trump claims 350 billion USD has been provided and his proposal that demands an indemnity (actually, reparations) in natural resource concessions of 500 billion USD.

                                        From what tree did Trump pull his numbers?

                                        Elbows up!

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • JollyJ Jolly

                                          @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                                          And as for criticising Zelensky for not holding elections. Presumably, Trump is looking to overlook the savagery and barbarity with which his friend Putin assures his own election victories?

                                          WTF is wrong with the guy?

                                          Or am I completely wrong about this? Maybe it's time for that great American conservative Tucker Carlson to go on another fact finding mission and marvel at the price of Russian eggs?

                                          He's decided to end this war. Zelensky is currently polling below 10% He using that as a hammer to make Ukraine sign off on a peace proposal.

                                          Is that right? Maybe not. Is it effective in ending this war? Perhaps.

                                          LuFins DadL Offline
                                          LuFins DadL Offline
                                          LuFins Dad
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #55

                                          @Jolly said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                                          @Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

                                          And as for criticising Zelensky for not holding elections. Presumably, Trump is looking to overlook the savagery and barbarity with which his friend Putin assures his own election victories?

                                          WTF is wrong with the guy?

                                          Or am I completely wrong about this? Maybe it's time for that great American conservative Tucker Carlson to go on another fact finding mission and marvel at the price of Russian eggs?

                                          He's decided to end this war. Zelensky is currently polling below 10% He using that as a hammer to make Ukraine sign off on a peace proposal.

                                          Is that right? Maybe not. Is it effective in ending this war? Perhaps.

                                          Actually, Zelenskyy is polling at 50%, and the numbers are increasing since Trump started attacking him.

                                          The Brad

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