Helicopter Crash in DC
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Can someone please explain to me, and please type very slowly so I understand, isn’t it the job of ATC to prevent mid air collisions?
The instructions given by ATC were either followed or they were not. If they were followed, ATC bears the culpability. If they were not, it remains to be seen, which of the two pilots is responsible.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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I think it’s quite possible there were failures by both the ATC and the Blackhawk Crew.
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Does the military helicopters come under that air traffic control the same as planes?
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The ATC instructions look to have amounted to "helicopter, avoid the planes by looking around with your eyes". Those instructions were not followed per se.
@Horace said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
The ATC instructions look to have amounted to "helicopter, avoid the planes by looking around with your eyes". Those instructions were not followed per se.
It would be worth knowing whether the instructions being given by the ATC are typical for this type of situation, or whether they normally provide more information.
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Can someone please explain to me, and please type very slowly so I understand, isn’t it the job of ATC to prevent mid air collisions?
The instructions given by ATC were either followed or they were not. If they were followed, ATC bears the culpability. If they were not, it remains to be seen, which of the two pilots is responsible.
@George-K said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
Can someone please explain to me, and please type very slowly so I understand, isn’t it the job of ATC to prevent mid air collisions?
There are lots and lots of exceptions for what I wrote below, I'm just trying to keep it simple.
When a pilot files an instrument flight plan he will follow step-by-step instructions until he arrives at his destination.
He will be watched on radar by ATC and they will provide separation from other traffic.
If the pilot switches to VFR (visual flight rules) ATC will no longer provide separation and the pilot does his own navigation.
So why would a guy switch to VFR? For many reasons. It makes life a bit simpler because you don't have to communicate as much with ATC, and you are doing your own navigation which is generally simpler. Also it frees up some air space for other airplanes. Once you go visual the ATC doesn't have to maintain as much separation. So this means more planes can use a busy airspace.
When I was flying at Leesburg, VA and I wanted to make an IFR flight and the sky was clear, I might take off VFR and request to open the IFR plan in flight. Why do this? Because if there was traffic taking off IFR at Dulles Airport, they would not release us to takeoff while the Dulles traffic was still in the vicinity. So I would just takeoff VFR because then I didn't need clearance, I could do whatever I want. This could save me a lot of time because I didn't sit on the ground waiting for commercial traffic that always got higher priority. After getting out of the area I could open the IFR plan with no conflicts.
I think it common on a clear day to fly a visual approach - like the jet last night. Flying a visual approach the pilot navigates by looking out the window.
So once you go visual the ATC ignores you? Yes and no. If he is controlling other IFR traffic ATC will provide traffic advisories to the IFR flight.
Another option is VFR Flight Following, ATC will provide advisories as his time permits, if ATC is too busy the VFR pilot might not get advisories.
That jet was on a visual approach, but we heard on the tape that he was getting traffic advisories, certainly the helicopter was being advised of the traffic. Would they have received more or better advisories if the jet remained IFR? Maybe. That question will be asked during the investigation. But either way, those 2 should have been following each other closely, they had both been advised of the traffic.
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@89th said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
Incredible. January too. Reminded me of the Air Florida icy river crash in 1980 or so.
I remember a younger Howard Stern getting fired for making a crank call to Air Florida shortly therafter trying to book a one way ticket to the 14th St. Bridge. Numbskull. Has it occurred to anyone that maybe this approach zone to Reagan should be strictly limited to commercial aircraft? I'm sure there are plenty of other areas for Blackhawks and their ilk to run their missions. Reagan is dangerous enough as it is, with it location and short runways.
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Very. I actually texted my buddies last night that I figured the spin this morning would be about remote federal workers (e.g., NTSB, FAA) but I guess I was wrong, apparently it was DEI policies (even though the tower and both pilots were white males, as far as I know).
@89th said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
Very. I actually texted my buddies last night that I figured the spin this morning would be about remote federal workers (e.g., NTSB, FAA) but I guess I was wrong, apparently it was DEI policies (even though the tower and both pilots were white males, as far as I know).
Also are we really going there? If there's an accident and there's someone of the wrong color or sex involved we immediately blame them for being incompetent? Can't we, you know, do an investigation first?
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The press conference was pretty gross with Trump jumping the gun and blaming DEI, Pete Buttigieg, etc. Meanwhile, the blame will most likely be with the military aviator(s). Unless the non-advice from the tower to the helicopter that they should "look around and avoid planes" was not up to standard.
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@Jolly said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
I wouldn't give the Washington Compost the time of day. Their bias is well known.
The data is fully exposed, feel free to refute any of them. It's meticulously recorded and fully open source.
@89th said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
@Jolly said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
I wouldn't give the Washington Compost the time of day. Their bias is well known.
The data is fully exposed, feel free to refute any of them. It's meticulously recorded and fully open source.
Nope. The Compost is a Democrat-friendly rag that never met a Republican they actually liked.
No bueno. Feed that horseshit to somebody who believes it.
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Maybe give it a rest, guys?
@Doctor-Phibes said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
Maybe give it a rest, guys?
Don't start no shit, unless you want shit started.
One of the very first posts in this thread:
Welcome to Pete Hegseth’s DoD.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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Is there a morbid humor if it turns out that it was the fault of the ATC from REAGAN National Airport?
@LuFins-Dad said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
Is there a morbid humor if it turns out that it was the fault of the ATC from REAGAN National Airport?
Turns out, one controller was trying to do the job of two. Maybe he did get the job done. The investigation will find out.
Speaking of the investigation, more things are coming out...The helicopter crew was very experienced, with over 1000 hours in the cockpit of a Blackhawk(yes, one was a woman, if that makes any difference, which I doubt). In other news, they found the Bombardier's black box and they're starting the analysis.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
Maybe give it a rest, guys?
Don't start no shit, unless you want shit started.
One of the very first posts in this thread:
Welcome to Pete Hegseth’s DoD.
@Jolly said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
Maybe give it a rest, guys?
Don't start no shit, unless you want shit started.
One of the very first posts in this thread:
Welcome to Pete Hegseth’s DoD.
I said 'guys', plural. I wasn't taking sides.
Obviously, it was a complete waste of time.
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@Jolly said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
Maybe give it a rest, guys?
Don't start no shit, unless you want shit started.
One of the very first posts in this thread:
Welcome to Pete Hegseth’s DoD.
I said 'guys', plural. I wasn't taking sides.
Obviously, it was a complete waste of time.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
@Jolly said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
Maybe give it a rest, guys?
Don't start no shit, unless you want shit started.
One of the very first posts in this thread:
Welcome to Pete Hegseth’s DoD.
I said 'guys', plural. I wasn't taking sides.
Obviously, it was a complete waste of time.
Actually, you're right.
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@Mik said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
The whole scenario just seems so implausible to me.
It really is, almost like two (slow) bullets hitting in the air. Fluke. Those helicopters fly along the river and then beltway many times per day, usually about 200-300’ up. Normally planes aren’t that altitude except right before landing of course, just seems like a major helicopter pilot error, likely looking for a CRJ en route to the main runway.
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Did either or both aircraft have a traffic information system?
I assume both had it - a system to warn of nearby traffic.
2 pilots in each aircraft should have heard and seen alarms. In order for a collision to occur both pilots at the controls had to ignore the warnings. Or, I guess, they might assume the other guy would fix the problem.
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Did either or both aircraft have a traffic information system?
I assume both had it - a system to warn of nearby traffic.
2 pilots in each aircraft should have heard and seen alarms. In order for a collision to occur both pilots at the controls had to ignore the warnings. Or, I guess, they might assume the other guy would fix the problem.
@Copper said in Helicopter Crash in DC:
Did either or both aircraft have a traffic information system?
I assume both had it - a system to warn of nearby traffic.
2 pilots in each aircraft should have heard and seen alarms. In order for a collision to occur both pilots at the controls had to ignore the warnings. Or, I guess, they might assume the other guy would fix the problem.
A few things more tonight ...
The chopper might have been at 400 feet. That's 200 feet too high for where they were at.
The ATC did not give the chopper pilot a direction to look. There were two Bombardier planes within vision of the helicopter cockpit.
