Helicopter Crash in DC

[89th]

@Horace said in Helicopter Crash in DC:

And in a spirit of fair play, I'm sure they counted Biden's false or misleading statements too. If they had, what the best possible rhetorical punch that would be left? Trump had 30 thousand lies against a mere 21 thousand for Biden!

They actually did start counting Biden's lies but stopped after 100 days once they realized it was apples to orange (man).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/interactive/2021/biden-fact-checker-100-days/'

They said Trump was most prolific with his lying the 100 days before the 2020 election when he racked up over 8,000 lies.

[89th]

@Jolly said in Helicopter Crash in DC:

I wouldn't give the Washington Compost the time of day. Their bias is well known.

The data is fully exposed, feel free to refute any of them. It's meticulously recorded and fully open source.

[Doctor Phibes]

Maybe give it a rest, guys?

[Horace]

@89th Of course, Biden rarely spoke publicly, as compared to Trump, so we have yet another way of lying with statistics.

[Horace]

@Doctor-Phibes oh, the Trump haters are out in force, being horrified at Trump's speech. Are we all bound not to respond?

[LuFins Dad]

Is there a morbid humor if it turns out that it was the fault of the ATC from REAGAN National Airport?

[George K]

Can someone please explain to me, and please type very slowly so I understand, isn’t it the job of ATC to prevent mid air collisions?

The instructions given by ATC were either followed or they were not. If they were followed, ATC bears the culpability. If they were not, it remains to be seen, which of the two pilots is responsible.

[Horace]

The ATC instructions look to have amounted to "helicopter, avoid the planes by looking around with your eyes". Those instructions were not followed per se.

[LuFins Dad]

I think it’s quite possible there were failures by both the ATC and the Blackhawk Crew.

[taiwan_girl]

Does the military helicopters come under that air traffic control the same as planes?

[Doctor Phibes]

@Horace said in Helicopter Crash in DC:

The ATC instructions look to have amounted to "helicopter, avoid the planes by looking around with your eyes". Those instructions were not followed per se.

It would be worth knowing whether the instructions being given by the ATC are typical for this type of situation, or whether they normally provide more information.

[Copper]

@George-K said in Helicopter Crash in DC:

Can someone please explain to me, and please type very slowly so I understand, isn’t it the job of ATC to prevent mid air collisions?

There are lots and lots of exceptions for what I wrote below, I'm just trying to keep it simple.

When a pilot files an instrument flight plan he will follow step-by-step instructions until he arrives at his destination.

He will be watched on radar by ATC and they will provide separation from other traffic.

If the pilot switches to VFR (visual flight rules) ATC will no longer provide separation and the pilot does his own navigation.

So why would a guy switch to VFR? For many reasons. It makes life a bit simpler because you don't have to communicate as much with ATC, and you are doing your own navigation which is generally simpler. Also it frees up some air space for other airplanes. Once you go visual the ATC doesn't have to maintain as much separation. So this means more planes can use a busy airspace.

When I was flying at Leesburg, VA and I wanted to make an IFR flight and the sky was clear, I might take off VFR and request to open the IFR plan in flight. Why do this? Because if there was traffic taking off IFR at Dulles Airport, they would not release us to takeoff while the Dulles traffic was still in the vicinity. So I would just takeoff VFR because then I didn't need clearance, I could do whatever I want. This could save me a lot of time because I didn't sit on the ground waiting for commercial traffic that always got higher priority. After getting out of the area I could open the IFR plan with no conflicts.

I think it common on a clear day to fly a visual approach - like the jet last night. Flying a visual approach the pilot navigates by looking out the window.

So once you go visual the ATC ignores you? Yes and no. If he is controlling other IFR traffic ATC will provide traffic advisories to the IFR flight.

Another option is VFR Flight Following, ATC will provide advisories as his time permits, if ATC is too busy the VFR pilot might not get advisories.

That jet was on a visual approach, but we heard on the tape that he was getting traffic advisories, certainly the helicopter was being advised of the traffic. Would they have received more or better advisories if the jet remained IFR? Maybe. That question will be asked during the investigation. But either way, those 2 should have been following each other closely, they had both been advised of the traffic.

[NobodySock]

@89th said in Helicopter Crash in DC:

Incredible. January too. Reminded me of the Air Florida icy river crash in 1980 or so.

I remember a younger Howard Stern getting fired for making a crank call to Air Florida shortly therafter trying to book a one way ticket to the 14th St. Bridge. Numbskull. Has it occurred to anyone that maybe this approach zone to Reagan should be strictly limited to commercial aircraft? I'm sure there are plenty of other areas for Blackhawks and their ilk to run their missions. Reagan is dangerous enough as it is, with it location and short runways.

[Mik]

I find it hard to fathom that a routine training mission would cross a busy flight path where commercial flights could be expected at the same altitudes. If the base was north of the airport, fly north.

[jon-nyc]

@89th said in Helicopter Crash in DC:

Very. I actually texted my buddies last night that I figured the spin this morning would be about remote federal workers (e.g., NTSB, FAA) but I guess I was wrong, apparently it was DEI policies (even though the tower and both pilots were white males, as far as I know).

Also are we really going there? If there's an accident and there's someone of the wrong color or sex involved we immediately blame them for being incompetent? Can't we, you know, do an investigation first?

[Horace]

The press conference was pretty gross with Trump jumping the gun and blaming DEI, Pete Buttigieg, etc. Meanwhile, the blame will most likely be with the military aviator(s). Unless the non-advice from the tower to the helicopter that they should "look around and avoid planes" was not up to standard.

[Jolly]

@89th said in Helicopter Crash in DC:

@Jolly said in Helicopter Crash in DC:

I wouldn't give the Washington Compost the time of day. Their bias is well known.

The data is fully exposed, feel free to refute any of them. It's meticulously recorded and fully open source.

Nope. The Compost is a Democrat-friendly rag that never met a Republican they actually liked.

No bueno. Feed that horseshit to somebody who believes it.

[Jolly]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Helicopter Crash in DC:

Maybe give it a rest, guys?

Don't start no shit, unless you want shit started.

One of the very first posts in this thread:

Welcome to Pete Hegseth’s DoD.

[Jolly]

@LuFins-Dad said in Helicopter Crash in DC:

Is there a morbid humor if it turns out that it was the fault of the ATC from REAGAN National Airport?

Turns out, one controller was trying to do the job of two. Maybe he did get the job done. The investigation will find out.

Speaking of the investigation, more things are coming out...The helicopter crew was very experienced, with over 1000 hours in the cockpit of a Blackhawk(yes, one was a woman, if that makes any difference, which I doubt). In other news, they found the Bombardier's black box and they're starting the analysis.

[Mik]

The whole scenario just seems so implausible to me.