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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness

Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness

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  • HoraceH Horace

    @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

    But the reality is I am vehemently anti-Trump and vehemently anti-Woke. Horace thinks that makes me ‘objective‘, I just think it makes me sane.

    I don't think your Trump hatred is some affectation you use to balance your opinions. I think it comes from a real and visceral place. But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

    jon-nycJ Offline
    jon-nycJ Offline
    jon-nyc
    wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
    #17

    @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

    @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:
    But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

    This is quite ironic given my main opposition to Trumpism is its nihilistic tendencies. Very anti-conservative in the Burkean sense.

    In fact my opposition to Trumpism and the progressive left comes from an identical place.

    Some day when I'm bored I'll even find your early confession of supporting Trump simply to watch him tear things down. This was before you were fully orange-pilled, it was pure ressentiment talking.

    Only non-witches get due process.

    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
    KlausK HoraceH 2 Replies Last reply
    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

      @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

      @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:
      But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

      This is quite ironic given my main opposition to Trumpism is its nihilistic tendencies. Very anti-conservative in the Burkean sense.

      In fact my opposition to Trumpism and the progressive left comes from an identical place.

      Some day when I'm bored I'll even find your early confession of supporting Trump simply to watch him tear things down. This was before you were fully orange-pilled, it was pure ressentiment talking.

      KlausK Offline
      KlausK Offline
      Klaus
      wrote on last edited by
      #18

      @jon-nyc Many adjectives come to my mind when thinking about Trumpism, but I must admit that "nihilistic" isn't in the top ten.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • jon-nycJ Offline
        jon-nycJ Offline
        jon-nyc
        wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
        #19

        Think of his posture and actions with respect to the post-war global order, for example. (Nato, WHO, TPP, NAFTA, WTO, UNESCO, G7, etc. etc. etc.)

        But also on a national institutional scale. Norm-breaking is part of his brand.

        As Horace himself approvingly noted, he is the horse in the hospital.

        Only non-witches get due process.

        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
        HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
        • KlausK Offline
          KlausK Offline
          Klaus
          wrote on last edited by Klaus
          #20

          Hm. Norm-breaking isn't necessarily nihilistic. His foreign policy could be seen as a return of a kind of "splendid isolation" policy, which also isn't necessarily nihilistic. A nihilist is somebody who doesn't care about anything. Trump does care about some things. Not about the right things, but some things are very important to him and have meaning for him (such as: being admired).

          Let me think about the top three adjectives that come to my mind. I think they are: Narcissistic, impulsive, populistic.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

            @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

            @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:
            But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

            This is quite ironic given my main opposition to Trumpism is its nihilistic tendencies. Very anti-conservative in the Burkean sense.

            In fact my opposition to Trumpism and the progressive left comes from an identical place.

            Some day when I'm bored I'll even find your early confession of supporting Trump simply to watch him tear things down. This was before you were fully orange-pilled, it was pure ressentiment talking.

            HoraceH Offline
            HoraceH Offline
            Horace
            wrote on last edited by
            #21

            @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

            @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

            @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:
            But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

            This is quite ironic given my main opposition to Trumpism is its nihilistic tendencies. Very anti-conservative in the Burkean sense.

            In fact my opposition to Trumpism and the progressive left comes from an identical place.

            Yes, I understand you give yourself that much credibility.

            Some day when I'm bored I'll even find your early confession of supporting Trump simply to watch him tear things down. This was before you were fully orange-pilled, it was pure ressentiment talking.

            Your track record of understanding what I write is not as perfect as you'd like to believe, jon. But your willingness to say that - that my Trump support is by my own confession based on my affinity for mindless destruction - without a willingness to back it up, is in fact revealing of a certain character.

            Education is extremely important.

            jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

              Think of his posture and actions with respect to the post-war global order, for example. (Nato, WHO, TPP, NAFTA, WTO, UNESCO, G7, etc. etc. etc.)

              But also on a national institutional scale. Norm-breaking is part of his brand.

              As Horace himself approvingly noted, he is the horse in the hospital.

              HoraceH Offline
              HoraceH Offline
              Horace
              wrote on last edited by
              #22

              @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

              Think of his posture and actions with respect to the post-war global order, for example. (Nato, WHO, TPP, NAFTA, WTO, UNESCO, G7, etc. etc. etc.)

              But also on a national institutional scale. Norm-breaking is part of his brand.

              As Horace himself approvingly noted, he is the horse in the hospital.

              It is part of all prominent political brands to selectively destroy and rebuild.

              The horse in the hospital was a joke by John Mulaney which I said was pretty good but didn't lead much of anywhere funny, in the act.

              Education is extremely important.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • HoraceH Horace

                @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:
                But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

                This is quite ironic given my main opposition to Trumpism is its nihilistic tendencies. Very anti-conservative in the Burkean sense.

                In fact my opposition to Trumpism and the progressive left comes from an identical place.

                Yes, I understand you give yourself that much credibility.

                Some day when I'm bored I'll even find your early confession of supporting Trump simply to watch him tear things down. This was before you were fully orange-pilled, it was pure ressentiment talking.

                Your track record of understanding what I write is not as perfect as you'd like to believe, jon. But your willingness to say that - that my Trump support is by my own confession based on my affinity for mindless destruction - without a willingness to back it up, is in fact revealing of a certain character.

                jon-nycJ Offline
                jon-nycJ Offline
                jon-nyc
                wrote on last edited by
                #23

                @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                But your willingness to say that - that my Trump support is by my own confession based on my affinity for mindless destruction - without a willingness to back it up, is in fact revealing of a certain character.

                You don't think it has even a little to do with the challenges of searching a 15 year database of posts?

                Only non-witches get due process.

                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                1 Reply Last reply
                • jon-nycJ Offline
                  jon-nycJ Offline
                  jon-nyc
                  wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                  #24

                  One of the problems with our populist movements, like populist movements in general, is they are very keen on what they want to destroy and very vague on what or how to build in its place.

                  Only non-witches get due process.

                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                  HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                  • HoraceH Offline
                    HoraceH Offline
                    Horace
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #25

                    If it's difficult to search it, you could attempt an exercise of humility and acknowledge that you're framing what I wrote in a conveniently dismissive way, based potentially on your own misunderstanding.

                    Education is extremely important.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                      One of the problems with our populist movements, like populist movements in general, is they are very keen on what they want to destroy and very vague on what or how to build in its place.

                      HoraceH Offline
                      HoraceH Offline
                      Horace
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #26

                      @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                      One of the problems with our populist movements, like populist movements in general, is they are very keen on what they want to destroy and very vague on what or how to build in its place.

                      is that as big a problem as people's psychological blocks against distinguishing a preference for one candidate over the other, from full unqualified love of that candidate?

                      Education is extremely important.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • HoraceH Offline
                        HoraceH Offline
                        Horace
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #27

                        And by the way, the reason you remember what I allegedly wrote so vividly, is because it confirmed your bias that there's something psychologically wrong with Trump supporters. It's been your ground truth about my Trump support ever since, and from that seed of contempt grew your comfortable total dismissal of me as a tribal pill swallower. It's all very lazy of you.

                        Education is extremely important.

                        jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ Offline
                          jon-nycJ Offline
                          jon-nyc
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #28

                          Funny, I didn't think you were tribal in 2011, and I did in 2017. Did I just become more lazy in that time?

                          I'll bet I'm not the only one who noticed the change became more lazy.

                          Only non-witches get due process.

                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • HoraceH Offline
                            HoraceH Offline
                            Horace
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #29

                            You and whomever else thinks whatever you and whomever else think, are more than welcome to point it out to me when I post something that must certainly be informed by irrational tribalism. I am always willing to teach. I hope you're willing to learn.

                            Education is extremely important.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • jon-nycJ Offline
                              jon-nycJ Offline
                              jon-nyc
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #30

                              I'm looking forward to it.

                              Only non-witches get due process.

                              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • HoraceH Offline
                                HoraceH Offline
                                Horace
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #31

                                Meanwhile, challenge to attempt an exercise of humility not accepted. Duly noted, and not surprising.

                                Education is extremely important.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • jon-nycJ Offline
                                  jon-nycJ Offline
                                  jon-nyc
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #32

                                  I'm talking to you, aren't I?

                                  Only non-witches get due process.

                                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                  HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                                  • 89th8 Offline
                                    89th8 Offline
                                    89th
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #33

                                    fight

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                      I'm talking to you, aren't I?

                                      HoraceH Offline
                                      HoraceH Offline
                                      Horace
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #34

                                      @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                                      I'm talking to you, aren't I?

                                      Your ability to interact with the rabble from your perch above it all is always impressive.

                                      Education is extremely important.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • 89th8 Offline
                                        89th8 Offline
                                        89th
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #35

                                        fight

                                        LarryL 1 Reply Last reply
                                        • LarryL Offline
                                          LarryL Offline
                                          Larry
                                          wrote on last edited by Larry
                                          #36

                                          It doesnt seem to have occurred to Jon that what he sees as "tribalism" from Horace is merely a normal and healthy ability to tell the difference between shit and shinola, and it is Jon's TDS that's standing in the way of him having that ability himself.

                                          But of course I'm just a poor old Injun from the South so what would I know...

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