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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness

Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness

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  • MikM Offline
    MikM Offline
    Mik
    wrote on last edited by Mik
    #13

    I have always seen Jon as just a bit to the left of me - fiscal conservative, pro business, socially a bit more liberal.

    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

    1 Reply Last reply
    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

      @Rainman said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

      Frankly, Jon, I'm surprised you would post an article such as this. You do come across to me as someone that is very much "woke" or at least trying to be.

      Wow. This surprises me. I think I’ve been quite vocal and consistently anti-woke.

      Maybe you see I’m anti-Trump so you just lump me in vaguely with ‘the other guys’? Maybe you don’t read my posts? Maybe I’m just not nearly as good a communicator as I’d hope.

      But the reality is I am vehemently anti-Trump and vehemently anti-Woke. Horace thinks that makes me ‘objective‘, I just think it makes me sane.

      HoraceH Offline
      HoraceH Offline
      Horace
      wrote on last edited by
      #14

      @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

      But the reality is I am vehemently anti-Trump and vehemently anti-Woke. Horace thinks that makes me ‘objective‘, I just think it makes me sane.

      I don't think your Trump hatred is some affectation you use to balance your opinions. I think it comes from a real and visceral place. But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

      Education is extremely important.

      jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
      • KlausK Klaus

        Now about the article: The one thing that leaves me a little dissatisfied with it is that I think most "woke" people aren't very familiar with critical theory. I have a hard time imagining that all those adolescent ultra-progressives read works from the Frankfurt school or Foucault.

        So, while it may be true that "critical theory" has been the origin of the "woke" philosophy, it seems to me that there is a narrative that justifies being "woke" that doesn't require familiarity with critical theory.

        Catseye3C Offline
        Catseye3C Offline
        Catseye3
        wrote on last edited by Catseye3
        #15

        @Klaus said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

        I think most "woke" people aren't very familiar with critical theory

        But that's the beauty of it; they don't have to be. They don't even have to know the theory exists! In fact, pursuing acquaintanceship with the theory would call for the application of reason! Wouldn't work!

        No, in this case the woke need only glide along on the coattails of the other zillion social media lambkins. Nothing deeper required. They don't even have to mount any kind of defense for their position. They have catch phrases a-plenty they can grunt at anybody who asks.

        Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

        1 Reply Last reply
        • L Loki

          Liberalism rode on the tails of social justice when it was convenient and created the monster.

          Centrists should take little comfort in the hope that liberalism wins back the day.

          But I agree that Jon never came off as woke. First of all he is too old. 😂

          Good article! Thanks for reminding me to read him weekly.

          X Offline
          X Offline
          xenon
          wrote on last edited by xenon
          #16

          @Loki said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

          Liberalism rode on the tails of social justice when it was convenient and created the monster.
          Centrists should take little comfort in the hope that liberalism wins back the day.

          Sullivan is talking about philosophical Liberalism - not liberal used to denote left-wing.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • HoraceH Horace

            @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

            But the reality is I am vehemently anti-Trump and vehemently anti-Woke. Horace thinks that makes me ‘objective‘, I just think it makes me sane.

            I don't think your Trump hatred is some affectation you use to balance your opinions. I think it comes from a real and visceral place. But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

            jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nyc
            wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
            #17

            @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

            @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:
            But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

            This is quite ironic given my main opposition to Trumpism is its nihilistic tendencies. Very anti-conservative in the Burkean sense.

            In fact my opposition to Trumpism and the progressive left comes from an identical place.

            Some day when I'm bored I'll even find your early confession of supporting Trump simply to watch him tear things down. This was before you were fully orange-pilled, it was pure ressentiment talking.

            Only non-witches get due process.

            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
            KlausK HoraceH 2 Replies Last reply
            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

              @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

              @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:
              But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

              This is quite ironic given my main opposition to Trumpism is its nihilistic tendencies. Very anti-conservative in the Burkean sense.

              In fact my opposition to Trumpism and the progressive left comes from an identical place.

              Some day when I'm bored I'll even find your early confession of supporting Trump simply to watch him tear things down. This was before you were fully orange-pilled, it was pure ressentiment talking.

              KlausK Offline
              KlausK Offline
              Klaus
              wrote on last edited by
              #18

              @jon-nyc Many adjectives come to my mind when thinking about Trumpism, but I must admit that "nihilistic" isn't in the top ten.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • jon-nycJ Offline
                jon-nycJ Offline
                jon-nyc
                wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                #19

                Think of his posture and actions with respect to the post-war global order, for example. (Nato, WHO, TPP, NAFTA, WTO, UNESCO, G7, etc. etc. etc.)

                But also on a national institutional scale. Norm-breaking is part of his brand.

                As Horace himself approvingly noted, he is the horse in the hospital.

                Only non-witches get due process.

                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                • KlausK Offline
                  KlausK Offline
                  Klaus
                  wrote on last edited by Klaus
                  #20

                  Hm. Norm-breaking isn't necessarily nihilistic. His foreign policy could be seen as a return of a kind of "splendid isolation" policy, which also isn't necessarily nihilistic. A nihilist is somebody who doesn't care about anything. Trump does care about some things. Not about the right things, but some things are very important to him and have meaning for him (such as: being admired).

                  Let me think about the top three adjectives that come to my mind. I think they are: Narcissistic, impulsive, populistic.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                    @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                    @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:
                    But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

                    This is quite ironic given my main opposition to Trumpism is its nihilistic tendencies. Very anti-conservative in the Burkean sense.

                    In fact my opposition to Trumpism and the progressive left comes from an identical place.

                    Some day when I'm bored I'll even find your early confession of supporting Trump simply to watch him tear things down. This was before you were fully orange-pilled, it was pure ressentiment talking.

                    HoraceH Offline
                    HoraceH Offline
                    Horace
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #21

                    @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                    @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                    @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:
                    But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

                    This is quite ironic given my main opposition to Trumpism is its nihilistic tendencies. Very anti-conservative in the Burkean sense.

                    In fact my opposition to Trumpism and the progressive left comes from an identical place.

                    Yes, I understand you give yourself that much credibility.

                    Some day when I'm bored I'll even find your early confession of supporting Trump simply to watch him tear things down. This was before you were fully orange-pilled, it was pure ressentiment talking.

                    Your track record of understanding what I write is not as perfect as you'd like to believe, jon. But your willingness to say that - that my Trump support is by my own confession based on my affinity for mindless destruction - without a willingness to back it up, is in fact revealing of a certain character.

                    Education is extremely important.

                    jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                      Think of his posture and actions with respect to the post-war global order, for example. (Nato, WHO, TPP, NAFTA, WTO, UNESCO, G7, etc. etc. etc.)

                      But also on a national institutional scale. Norm-breaking is part of his brand.

                      As Horace himself approvingly noted, he is the horse in the hospital.

                      HoraceH Offline
                      HoraceH Offline
                      Horace
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #22

                      @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                      Think of his posture and actions with respect to the post-war global order, for example. (Nato, WHO, TPP, NAFTA, WTO, UNESCO, G7, etc. etc. etc.)

                      But also on a national institutional scale. Norm-breaking is part of his brand.

                      As Horace himself approvingly noted, he is the horse in the hospital.

                      It is part of all prominent political brands to selectively destroy and rebuild.

                      The horse in the hospital was a joke by John Mulaney which I said was pretty good but didn't lead much of anywhere funny, in the act.

                      Education is extremely important.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • HoraceH Horace

                        @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                        @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                        @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:
                        But I don't think that all the destruction you will happily watch in service of it could be termed strictly sane or rational.

                        This is quite ironic given my main opposition to Trumpism is its nihilistic tendencies. Very anti-conservative in the Burkean sense.

                        In fact my opposition to Trumpism and the progressive left comes from an identical place.

                        Yes, I understand you give yourself that much credibility.

                        Some day when I'm bored I'll even find your early confession of supporting Trump simply to watch him tear things down. This was before you were fully orange-pilled, it was pure ressentiment talking.

                        Your track record of understanding what I write is not as perfect as you'd like to believe, jon. But your willingness to say that - that my Trump support is by my own confession based on my affinity for mindless destruction - without a willingness to back it up, is in fact revealing of a certain character.

                        jon-nycJ Offline
                        jon-nycJ Offline
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #23

                        @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                        But your willingness to say that - that my Trump support is by my own confession based on my affinity for mindless destruction - without a willingness to back it up, is in fact revealing of a certain character.

                        You don't think it has even a little to do with the challenges of searching a 15 year database of posts?

                        Only non-witches get due process.

                        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ Offline
                          jon-nycJ Offline
                          jon-nyc
                          wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                          #24

                          One of the problems with our populist movements, like populist movements in general, is they are very keen on what they want to destroy and very vague on what or how to build in its place.

                          Only non-witches get due process.

                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                          HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                          • HoraceH Offline
                            HoraceH Offline
                            Horace
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #25

                            If it's difficult to search it, you could attempt an exercise of humility and acknowledge that you're framing what I wrote in a conveniently dismissive way, based potentially on your own misunderstanding.

                            Education is extremely important.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                              One of the problems with our populist movements, like populist movements in general, is they are very keen on what they want to destroy and very vague on what or how to build in its place.

                              HoraceH Offline
                              HoraceH Offline
                              Horace
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #26

                              @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                              One of the problems with our populist movements, like populist movements in general, is they are very keen on what they want to destroy and very vague on what or how to build in its place.

                              is that as big a problem as people's psychological blocks against distinguishing a preference for one candidate over the other, from full unqualified love of that candidate?

                              Education is extremely important.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • HoraceH Offline
                                HoraceH Offline
                                Horace
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #27

                                And by the way, the reason you remember what I allegedly wrote so vividly, is because it confirmed your bias that there's something psychologically wrong with Trump supporters. It's been your ground truth about my Trump support ever since, and from that seed of contempt grew your comfortable total dismissal of me as a tribal pill swallower. It's all very lazy of you.

                                Education is extremely important.

                                jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                • jon-nycJ Offline
                                  jon-nycJ Offline
                                  jon-nyc
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #28

                                  Funny, I didn't think you were tribal in 2011, and I did in 2017. Did I just become more lazy in that time?

                                  I'll bet I'm not the only one who noticed the change became more lazy.

                                  Only non-witches get due process.

                                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • HoraceH Offline
                                    HoraceH Offline
                                    Horace
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #29

                                    You and whomever else thinks whatever you and whomever else think, are more than welcome to point it out to me when I post something that must certainly be informed by irrational tribalism. I am always willing to teach. I hope you're willing to learn.

                                    Education is extremely important.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • jon-nycJ Offline
                                      jon-nycJ Offline
                                      jon-nyc
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #30

                                      I'm looking forward to it.

                                      Only non-witches get due process.

                                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • HoraceH Offline
                                        HoraceH Offline
                                        Horace
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #31

                                        Meanwhile, challenge to attempt an exercise of humility not accepted. Duly noted, and not surprising.

                                        Education is extremely important.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • jon-nycJ Offline
                                          jon-nycJ Offline
                                          jon-nyc
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #32

                                          I'm talking to you, aren't I?

                                          Only non-witches get due process.

                                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                          HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
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