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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Meanwhile, at Harvard...

Meanwhile, at Harvard...

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  • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

    It isn’t a question of what’s allowed. It’s a question of what constitutes harassment.

    If I post a general comment here about (say) gender differences, should an employee at my foundation be able to report it to HR as harassment?

    Of course not.

    What if I post it and then send them the link? That’s different.

    HoraceH Offline
    HoraceH Offline
    Horace
    wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
    #106

    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

    It isn’t a question of what’s allowed. It’s a question of what constitutes harassment.

    If I post a general comment here about (say) gender differences, should an employee at my foundation be able to report it to HR as harassment?

    Of course not.

    What if I post it and then send them the link? That’s different.

    Thanks. I guess I was thinking about it all wrong. I had been thinking that the subject was, what was or was not allowed as campus speech.

    ***************-
    note from Jon. I tried to reply to this but hit edit accidentally. I cut off the rest of his paragraph. The text below here is my “reply”
    ***************-

    The entirety of Lemoine’s point was about Stefanik asking about whether this constituted ‘harassment and bullying’.

    Perhaps the universities have ‘hate speech’ codes that this could have violated, in which case surely the Representative could have nailed them on that.

    Education is extremely important.

    HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
    • jon-nycJ Online
      jon-nycJ Online
      jon-nyc
      wrote on last edited by
      #107

      FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

      Only non-witches get due process.

      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
      HoraceH George KG 2 Replies Last reply
      • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

        I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

        jon-nycJ Online
        jon-nycJ Online
        jon-nyc
        wrote on last edited by
        #108

        @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

        I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

        Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

        Only non-witches get due process.

        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
        Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by
          #109

          Horace - forgive me I accidentally edited your post above instead of replying to it. Fat fingers, small phone.

          I can’t undo it or I would. I’ll make a note in the post itself

          Only non-witches get due process.

          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
          1 Reply Last reply
          • HoraceH Horace

            @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

            It isn’t a question of what’s allowed. It’s a question of what constitutes harassment.

            If I post a general comment here about (say) gender differences, should an employee at my foundation be able to report it to HR as harassment?

            Of course not.

            What if I post it and then send them the link? That’s different.

            Thanks. I guess I was thinking about it all wrong. I had been thinking that the subject was, what was or was not allowed as campus speech.

            ***************-
            note from Jon. I tried to reply to this but hit edit accidentally. I cut off the rest of his paragraph. The text below here is my “reply”
            ***************-

            The entirety of Lemoine’s point was about Stefanik asking about whether this constituted ‘harassment and bullying’.

            Perhaps the universities have ‘hate speech’ codes that this could have violated, in which case surely the Representative could have nailed them on that.

            HoraceH Offline
            HoraceH Offline
            Horace
            wrote on last edited by
            #110

            @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

            The entirety of Lemoine’s point was about Stefanik asking about whether this constituted ‘harassment and bullying’.

            Perhaps the universities have ‘hate speech’ codes that this could have violated, in which case surely the Representative could have nailed them on that.

            My four scenarios about Joe the Jew are coherent as either allowed or disallowed within any policy you'd care to name.

            Education is extremely important.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

              FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

              HoraceH Offline
              HoraceH Offline
              Horace
              wrote on last edited by
              #111

              @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

              FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

              From the from the comments:

              Best line: "As FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff has written, censorship doesn’t change a person’s mind — it only prevents us from knowing what’s in their mind."

              This is actually not quite accurate. Ideas which people cannot talk about, do die, or are at least damaged. It's poetic to think that somehow, karmically, the ideas remain, and emerge stronger when finally freed, but really, as programmable meat robots, if you deprive humans of the programming, which is to say the messaging and conversation around it, those ideas do go away.

              Education is extremely important.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                Aqua LetiferA Offline
                Aqua LetiferA Offline
                Aqua Letifer
                wrote on last edited by
                #112

                @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                Please love yourself.

                jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                • CopperC Offline
                  CopperC Offline
                  Copper
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #113

                  The university presidents screwed up.

                  They should have given the simple yes or no - 1 word.

                  Why not? I think either way is legal and the fact that democrats now hate Jews is well known.

                  They acted like a bunch of guilty teenagers.

                  bachophileB 1 Reply Last reply
                  • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                    @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                    I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                    Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                    Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                    jon-nycJ Online
                    jon-nycJ Online
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #114

                    @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                    @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                    I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                    Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                    Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                    Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

                    You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

                    Only non-witches get due process.

                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                    Aqua LetiferA HoraceH 2 Replies Last reply
                    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                      Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                      Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                      Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

                      You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

                      Aqua LetiferA Offline
                      Aqua LetiferA Offline
                      Aqua Letifer
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #115

                      @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                      Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                      Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                      Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

                      You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

                      If this were another century maybe. I hope against but always expect our legislators to be this incompetent.

                      Please love yourself.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • George KG Offline
                        George KG Offline
                        George K
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #116

                        The editors at National Review:

                        https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/12/university-presidents-abhorrent-hypocrisy-on-anti-jewish-speech/

                        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                          @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                          Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                          Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                          Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

                          You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

                          HoraceH Offline
                          HoraceH Offline
                          Horace
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #117

                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                          Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                          Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                          Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

                          You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

                          I don't know why the senator was so specific about the policy, but even a harassment / bullying policy could be violated by a call for the murder of a group of people one is part of.

                          Education is extremely important.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • bachophileB Offline
                            bachophileB Offline
                            bachophile
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #118

                            IMG_1745.jpeg

                            Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                            • 89th8 Offline
                              89th8 Offline
                              89th
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #119

                              I would've kept it simple and said there is free speech on these campuses, as hateful as the speech might be, and that the university only intervenes once it seems like the speech is converting to a sticks and stones phases, as opposed to just words and air.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • CopperC Copper

                                The university presidents screwed up.

                                They should have given the simple yes or no - 1 word.

                                Why not? I think either way is legal and the fact that democrats now hate Jews is well known.

                                They acted like a bunch of guilty teenagers.

                                bachophileB Offline
                                bachophileB Offline
                                bachophile
                                wrote on last edited by bachophile
                                #120

                                @Copper said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                The university presidents screwed up.

                                They should have given the simple yes or no - 1 word.

                                Why not? I think either way is legal and the fact that democrats now hate Jews is well known.

                                They acted like a bunch of guilty teenagers.

                                well, it was a bit of a trick question, if you say yes, the next question is why wasnt anyone disciplined or expelled, if you say no, you sound like a fascist, so they tried to lawyer their way through by saying yes,but...(context blah blah blah)

                                and only after the fact do you see how simply assinine that sounds. but it was a lose lose situation, because the fact stands that no one was disciplined, or certainly expelled, so that has to be defended as defending free speech.

                                i really wonder if these presidents will keep their jobs, i understand there are lots of very angry board members at each school saying they humiliated themselves and the institutions they represent in front of the US Congress. not a pretty site.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • bachophileB bachophile

                                  IMG_1745.jpeg

                                  Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                  Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                  Aqua Letifer
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #121

                                  @bachophile said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                  IMG_1745.jpeg

                                  Perfect.

                                  Please love yourself.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                    FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

                                    George KG Offline
                                    George KG Offline
                                    George K
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #122

                                    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                    FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

                                    More from FIRE. A little less nuanced.

                                    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                    HoraceH AxtremusA 2 Replies Last reply
                                    • jon-nycJ Online
                                      jon-nycJ Online
                                      jon-nyc
                                      wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                                      #123

                                      I fear yesterday will become known as the day the right effectively signed off on hate-speech laws.

                                      Only non-witches get due process.

                                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                      HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                                      • LuFins DadL Offline
                                        LuFins DadL Offline
                                        LuFins Dad
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #124

                                        Sorry, but this is all a result of decades worth of accepting and even promoting criminal harassment, intimidation, and extortion and calling it free speech, while punishing and belittling those that peacefully assemble and express themselves.

                                        Harassment and intimidation is not a policy issue for Presidents and Chancellors to debate, it’s a policing issue.

                                        The Brad

                                        JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                          I fear yesterday will become known as the day the right effectively signed off on hate-speech laws.

                                          HoraceH Offline
                                          HoraceH Offline
                                          Horace
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #125

                                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                          I fear yesterday will become known as the day the right effectively signed off on hate-speech laws.

                                          Imagine all those both sides are equal posts whenever anybody on the right complains about free speech. Terrifying indeed.

                                          Education is extremely important.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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