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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Meanwhile, at Harvard...

Meanwhile, at Harvard...

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  • HoraceH Horace

    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

    It isn’t a question of what’s allowed. It’s a question of what constitutes harassment.

    If I post a general comment here about (say) gender differences, should an employee at my foundation be able to report it to HR as harassment?

    Of course not.

    What if I post it and then send them the link? That’s different.

    Thanks. I guess I was thinking about it all wrong. I had been thinking that the subject was, what was or was not allowed as campus speech.

    ***************-
    note from Jon. I tried to reply to this but hit edit accidentally. I cut off the rest of his paragraph. The text below here is my “reply”
    ***************-

    The entirety of Lemoine’s point was about Stefanik asking about whether this constituted ‘harassment and bullying’.

    Perhaps the universities have ‘hate speech’ codes that this could have violated, in which case surely the Representative could have nailed them on that.

    HoraceH Offline
    HoraceH Offline
    Horace
    wrote on last edited by
    #110

    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

    The entirety of Lemoine’s point was about Stefanik asking about whether this constituted ‘harassment and bullying’.

    Perhaps the universities have ‘hate speech’ codes that this could have violated, in which case surely the Representative could have nailed them on that.

    My four scenarios about Joe the Jew are coherent as either allowed or disallowed within any policy you'd care to name.

    Education is extremely important.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

      FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

      HoraceH Offline
      HoraceH Offline
      Horace
      wrote on last edited by
      #111

      @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

      FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

      From the from the comments:

      Best line: "As FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff has written, censorship doesn’t change a person’s mind — it only prevents us from knowing what’s in their mind."

      This is actually not quite accurate. Ideas which people cannot talk about, do die, or are at least damaged. It's poetic to think that somehow, karmically, the ideas remain, and emerge stronger when finally freed, but really, as programmable meat robots, if you deprive humans of the programming, which is to say the messaging and conversation around it, those ideas do go away.

      Education is extremely important.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

        @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

        I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

        Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

        Aqua LetiferA Offline
        Aqua LetiferA Offline
        Aqua Letifer
        wrote on last edited by
        #112

        @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

        @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

        I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

        Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

        Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

        Please love yourself.

        jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
        • CopperC Offline
          CopperC Offline
          Copper
          wrote on last edited by
          #113

          The university presidents screwed up.

          They should have given the simple yes or no - 1 word.

          Why not? I think either way is legal and the fact that democrats now hate Jews is well known.

          They acted like a bunch of guilty teenagers.

          bachophileB 1 Reply Last reply
          • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

            @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

            @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

            I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

            Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

            Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

            jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nyc
            wrote on last edited by
            #114

            @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

            @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

            @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

            I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

            Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

            Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

            Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

            You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

            Only non-witches get due process.

            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
            Aqua LetiferA HoraceH 2 Replies Last reply
            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

              @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

              @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

              @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

              I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

              Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

              Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

              Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

              You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

              Aqua LetiferA Offline
              Aqua LetiferA Offline
              Aqua Letifer
              wrote on last edited by
              #115

              @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

              @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

              @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

              @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

              I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

              Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

              Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

              Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

              You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

              If this were another century maybe. I hope against but always expect our legislators to be this incompetent.

              Please love yourself.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • George KG Offline
                George KG Offline
                George K
                wrote on last edited by
                #116

                The editors at National Review:

                https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/12/university-presidents-abhorrent-hypocrisy-on-anti-jewish-speech/

                "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                1 Reply Last reply
                • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                  @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                  @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                  @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                  I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                  Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                  Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                  Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

                  You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

                  HoraceH Offline
                  HoraceH Offline
                  Horace
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #117

                  @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                  @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                  @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                  @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                  I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                  Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                  Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                  Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

                  You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

                  I don't know why the senator was so specific about the policy, but even a harassment / bullying policy could be violated by a call for the murder of a group of people one is part of.

                  Education is extremely important.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • bachophileB Offline
                    bachophileB Offline
                    bachophile
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #118

                    IMG_1745.jpeg

                    Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                    • 89th8 Offline
                      89th8 Offline
                      89th
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #119

                      I would've kept it simple and said there is free speech on these campuses, as hateful as the speech might be, and that the university only intervenes once it seems like the speech is converting to a sticks and stones phases, as opposed to just words and air.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • CopperC Copper

                        The university presidents screwed up.

                        They should have given the simple yes or no - 1 word.

                        Why not? I think either way is legal and the fact that democrats now hate Jews is well known.

                        They acted like a bunch of guilty teenagers.

                        bachophileB Offline
                        bachophileB Offline
                        bachophile
                        wrote on last edited by bachophile
                        #120

                        @Copper said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                        The university presidents screwed up.

                        They should have given the simple yes or no - 1 word.

                        Why not? I think either way is legal and the fact that democrats now hate Jews is well known.

                        They acted like a bunch of guilty teenagers.

                        well, it was a bit of a trick question, if you say yes, the next question is why wasnt anyone disciplined or expelled, if you say no, you sound like a fascist, so they tried to lawyer their way through by saying yes,but...(context blah blah blah)

                        and only after the fact do you see how simply assinine that sounds. but it was a lose lose situation, because the fact stands that no one was disciplined, or certainly expelled, so that has to be defended as defending free speech.

                        i really wonder if these presidents will keep their jobs, i understand there are lots of very angry board members at each school saying they humiliated themselves and the institutions they represent in front of the US Congress. not a pretty site.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • bachophileB bachophile

                          IMG_1745.jpeg

                          Aqua LetiferA Offline
                          Aqua LetiferA Offline
                          Aqua Letifer
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #121

                          @bachophile said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          IMG_1745.jpeg

                          Perfect.

                          Please love yourself.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                            FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

                            George KG Offline
                            George KG Offline
                            George K
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #122

                            @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                            FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

                            More from FIRE. A little less nuanced.

                            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                            HoraceH AxtremusA 2 Replies Last reply
                            • jon-nycJ Offline
                              jon-nycJ Offline
                              jon-nyc
                              wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                              #123

                              I fear yesterday will become known as the day the right effectively signed off on hate-speech laws.

                              Only non-witches get due process.

                              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                              HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                              • LuFins DadL Offline
                                LuFins DadL Offline
                                LuFins Dad
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #124

                                Sorry, but this is all a result of decades worth of accepting and even promoting criminal harassment, intimidation, and extortion and calling it free speech, while punishing and belittling those that peacefully assemble and express themselves.

                                Harassment and intimidation is not a policy issue for Presidents and Chancellors to debate, it’s a policing issue.

                                The Brad

                                JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                  I fear yesterday will become known as the day the right effectively signed off on hate-speech laws.

                                  HoraceH Offline
                                  HoraceH Offline
                                  Horace
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #125

                                  @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                  I fear yesterday will become known as the day the right effectively signed off on hate-speech laws.

                                  Imagine all those both sides are equal posts whenever anybody on the right complains about free speech. Terrifying indeed.

                                  Education is extremely important.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • George KG Offline
                                    George KG Offline
                                    George K
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #126

                                    Is burning a cross "free speech?"

                                    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                    jon-nycJ JollyJ 2 Replies Last reply
                                    • 89th8 Offline
                                      89th8 Offline
                                      89th
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #127

                                      I'm a bit extreme, but sure...burn the cross. Tell someone you support genocide. Free speech laws are meant to protect the stuff that makes you uncomfortable, not the easy stuff. I tell my kids whenever a sibling tells another one "You're a booty butt!" (a very common insult when the 5 year old tries to get the 3 year old to cry). I tell them they are just words. Air and sound. They don't hurt and to ignore it. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words cannot hurt me...

                                      HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                                      • George KG George K

                                        @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                        FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

                                        More from FIRE. A little less nuanced.

                                        HoraceH Offline
                                        HoraceH Offline
                                        Horace
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #128

                                        @George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                        @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                        FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

                                        More from FIRE. A little less nuanced.

                                        It's certainly true that whatever speech and thought policing power is accumulated due to this, will be abused by the problem glass wearing middle aged progressive females in charge of the institutions. Maybe it's been 4D chess all along. Introduce an authoritarian idea blatantly biased against one political tribe, then watch them embrace the weapon when they see a chance to turn it on the other side. It's completely rational. What would any of us choose, between an unprincipled weapon used against our side exclusively, or an unprincipled weapon applied to everybody? Look to the chimp fairness experiment, there's your answer.

                                        Education is extremely important.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • 89th8 Offline
                                          89th8 Offline
                                          89th
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #129

                                          BTW the Penn statement was a good one, although she could've gone the "all lives matter" route and said the call for genocide of ANY group is wrong. I wonder if they were scared in congress to agree as they'd risk Muslim protests at their school?

                                          HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
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