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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Meanwhile, at Harvard...

Meanwhile, at Harvard...

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  • Aqua LetiferA Offline
    Aqua LetiferA Offline
    Aqua Letifer
    wrote on last edited by Aqua Letifer
    #100

    I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

    Please love yourself.

    jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
    • HoraceH Offline
      HoraceH Offline
      Horace
      wrote on last edited by
      #101

      It's barely even worth making the hackneyed point that a call for the extermination of black people would not be tolerated. It's like we're ignoring the elephant in the room about double standards, and trying to make sense of this anti-semitic speech in isolation, and failing even to do that.

      Education is extremely important.

      jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
      • HoraceH Horace

        It would not have occurred to me that a policy against bullying and harassment would allow for calls for genocide against a certain group, while prohibiting calls for killing individual members of that group. Their premise is that that distinction is totally reasonable.

        jon-nycJ Online
        jon-nycJ Online
        jon-nyc
        wrote on last edited by
        #102

        @Horace

        His point is that harassment and bullying predicate interpersonal interactions.

        It’s definitional. It’s not some fine distinction.

        Only non-witches get due process.

        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
        HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
        • HoraceH Horace

          It's barely even worth making the hackneyed point that a call for the extermination of black people would not be tolerated. It's like we're ignoring the elephant in the room about double standards, and trying to make sense of this anti-semitic speech in isolation, and failing even to do that.

          jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by
          #103

          @Horace

          He goes on to make the point that an hypocrisy charge is totally appropriate.

          To be clear, since many people are making this point, I completely agree with @DeadLiftCapital that the university presidents can be charged with hypocrisy, but that is not the point that Stefanik or Ackman are making and is irrelevant to my argument.

          Only non-witches get due process.

          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
          1 Reply Last reply
          • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

            @Horace

            His point is that harassment and bullying predicate interpersonal interactions.

            It’s definitional. It’s not some fine distinction.

            HoraceH Offline
            HoraceH Offline
            Horace
            wrote on last edited by
            #104

            @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

            @Horace

            His point is that harassment and bullying predicate interpersonal interactions.

            It’s definitional. It’s not some fine distinction.

            It remains unsatisfying to believe there is a reasonable distinction to be made between "Kill Jews", "Kill all the Jews on campus", "Kill the members of the Jewish Zionist Student Organization", "Kill Joe the Jew". Based on your idea of the clear definitions, which of those aren't allowed, and which are?

            Education is extremely important.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • jon-nycJ Online
              jon-nycJ Online
              jon-nyc
              wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
              #105

              It isn’t a question of what’s allowed. It’s a question of what constitutes harassment.

              If I post a general comment here about (say) gender differences, should an employee at my foundation be able to report it to HR as harassment?

              Of course not.

              What if I post it and then send them the link? That’s different.

              Only non-witches get due process.

              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
              HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
              • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                It isn’t a question of what’s allowed. It’s a question of what constitutes harassment.

                If I post a general comment here about (say) gender differences, should an employee at my foundation be able to report it to HR as harassment?

                Of course not.

                What if I post it and then send them the link? That’s different.

                HoraceH Offline
                HoraceH Offline
                Horace
                wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                #106

                @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                It isn’t a question of what’s allowed. It’s a question of what constitutes harassment.

                If I post a general comment here about (say) gender differences, should an employee at my foundation be able to report it to HR as harassment?

                Of course not.

                What if I post it and then send them the link? That’s different.

                Thanks. I guess I was thinking about it all wrong. I had been thinking that the subject was, what was or was not allowed as campus speech.

                ***************-
                note from Jon. I tried to reply to this but hit edit accidentally. I cut off the rest of his paragraph. The text below here is my “reply”
                ***************-

                The entirety of Lemoine’s point was about Stefanik asking about whether this constituted ‘harassment and bullying’.

                Perhaps the universities have ‘hate speech’ codes that this could have violated, in which case surely the Representative could have nailed them on that.

                Education is extremely important.

                HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                • jon-nycJ Online
                  jon-nycJ Online
                  jon-nyc
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #107

                  FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

                  Only non-witches get due process.

                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                  HoraceH George KG 2 Replies Last reply
                  • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                    I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                    jon-nycJ Online
                    jon-nycJ Online
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #108

                    @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                    I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                    Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                    Only non-witches get due process.

                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                    Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                    • jon-nycJ Online
                      jon-nycJ Online
                      jon-nyc
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #109

                      Horace - forgive me I accidentally edited your post above instead of replying to it. Fat fingers, small phone.

                      I can’t undo it or I would. I’ll make a note in the post itself

                      Only non-witches get due process.

                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • HoraceH Horace

                        @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                        It isn’t a question of what’s allowed. It’s a question of what constitutes harassment.

                        If I post a general comment here about (say) gender differences, should an employee at my foundation be able to report it to HR as harassment?

                        Of course not.

                        What if I post it and then send them the link? That’s different.

                        Thanks. I guess I was thinking about it all wrong. I had been thinking that the subject was, what was or was not allowed as campus speech.

                        ***************-
                        note from Jon. I tried to reply to this but hit edit accidentally. I cut off the rest of his paragraph. The text below here is my “reply”
                        ***************-

                        The entirety of Lemoine’s point was about Stefanik asking about whether this constituted ‘harassment and bullying’.

                        Perhaps the universities have ‘hate speech’ codes that this could have violated, in which case surely the Representative could have nailed them on that.

                        HoraceH Offline
                        HoraceH Offline
                        Horace
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #110

                        @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                        The entirety of Lemoine’s point was about Stefanik asking about whether this constituted ‘harassment and bullying’.

                        Perhaps the universities have ‘hate speech’ codes that this could have violated, in which case surely the Representative could have nailed them on that.

                        My four scenarios about Joe the Jew are coherent as either allowed or disallowed within any policy you'd care to name.

                        Education is extremely important.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                          FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

                          HoraceH Offline
                          HoraceH Offline
                          Horace
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #111

                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

                          From the from the comments:

                          Best line: "As FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff has written, censorship doesn’t change a person’s mind — it only prevents us from knowing what’s in their mind."

                          This is actually not quite accurate. Ideas which people cannot talk about, do die, or are at least damaged. It's poetic to think that somehow, karmically, the ideas remain, and emerge stronger when finally freed, but really, as programmable meat robots, if you deprive humans of the programming, which is to say the messaging and conversation around it, those ideas do go away.

                          Education is extremely important.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                            @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                            I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                            Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                            Aqua LetiferA Offline
                            Aqua LetiferA Offline
                            Aqua Letifer
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #112

                            @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                            @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                            I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                            Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                            Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                            Please love yourself.

                            jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                            • CopperC Offline
                              CopperC Offline
                              Copper
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #113

                              The university presidents screwed up.

                              They should have given the simple yes or no - 1 word.

                              Why not? I think either way is legal and the fact that democrats now hate Jews is well known.

                              They acted like a bunch of guilty teenagers.

                              bachophileB 1 Reply Last reply
                              • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                                @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                                Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                                Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                                jon-nycJ Online
                                jon-nycJ Online
                                jon-nyc
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #114

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                                Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                                Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                                Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

                                You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

                                Only non-witches get due process.

                                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                Aqua LetiferA HoraceH 2 Replies Last reply
                                • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                  @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                  @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                  @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                  I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                                  Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                                  Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                                  Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

                                  You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

                                  Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                  Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                  Aqua Letifer
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #115

                                  @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                  @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                  @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                  @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                  I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                                  Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                                  Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                                  Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

                                  You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

                                  If this were another century maybe. I hope against but always expect our legislators to be this incompetent.

                                  Please love yourself.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • George KG Offline
                                    George KG Offline
                                    George K
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #116

                                    The editors at National Review:

                                    https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/12/university-presidents-abhorrent-hypocrisy-on-anti-jewish-speech/

                                    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                      @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                      I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                                      Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                                      Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                                      Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

                                      You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

                                      HoraceH Offline
                                      HoraceH Offline
                                      Horace
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #117

                                      @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                      @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                      I also think the tweet misses the point entirely. Yeah sure okay, that's what the hearings are about, but the problem on the table right now, the one we are and should be focusing on, isn't adherence to university harassment policies.

                                      Seems like Representative Stefancik missed the point.

                                      Are you of the opinion that anti-semitism isn't a concern at these universities, and that university policy is what we should be focusing on?

                                      Of course not. Again, Lemoine’s point was rather specific. I even said it was a bit of a nitpick when I posted it.

                                      You’re right that it’s beside the point. But maybe Stefanik could have gotten to the point?

                                      I don't know why the senator was so specific about the policy, but even a harassment / bullying policy could be violated by a call for the murder of a group of people one is part of.

                                      Education is extremely important.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • bachophileB Offline
                                        bachophileB Offline
                                        bachophile
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #118

                                        IMG_1745.jpeg

                                        Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                                        • 89th8 Offline
                                          89th8 Offline
                                          89th
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #119

                                          I would've kept it simple and said there is free speech on these campuses, as hateful as the speech might be, and that the university only intervenes once it seems like the speech is converting to a sticks and stones phases, as opposed to just words and air.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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