30% national sales tax?

[Jolly]

@jon-nyc said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Copper Well, most people's 401k and IRA funds haven't been taxed, nor has social security.

But many seniors spend pretty much all of their income, so suddenly they'd be paying 30% in federal taxes.

Above a certain income level (and it ain't much), you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

[jon-nyc]

@Jolly True that, I was making the point that for most seniors, the majority of their spending comes from sources not previously taxed (unlike post-tax investments made pre-retirement)

[George K]

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

Isn't that taxed at 15%?

[Jolly]

@Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

That's where I disagree.

I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better. If a person takes that second job, if a person starts a business, if a person works overtime, he knows that for every dollar he makes, he gets to keep x percentage.

Back when I used to work a crew, you could not make them work over 24 hours OT in a pay period. Throw a cat in bathwater, would not work. Almost every dime they made over 24 hours went to the Feds, until they got somewhere over 30 hours.

Asking people to bust their ass for free does not work.

[LuFins Dad]

@George-K said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

Isn't that taxed at 15%?

I believe it still depends on what your total income is.

[jon-nyc]

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better. If a person takes that second job, if a person starts a business, if a person works overtime, he knows that for every dollar he makes, he gets to keep x percentage.

Back when I used to work a crew, you could not make them work over 24 hours OT in a pay period. Throw a cat in bathwater, would not work. Almost every dime they made over 24 hours went to the Feds, until they got somewhere over 30 hours.

Asking people to bust their ass for free does not work.

THat's just a bad bracket design. You don't need a flat tax to ensure that each marginal dollar of earnings results in a marginal increase in pay.

[Jolly]

@jon-nyc said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better. If a person takes that second job, if a person starts a business, if a person works overtime, he knows that for every dollar he makes, he gets to keep x percentage.

Back when I used to work a crew, you could not make them work over 24 hours OT in a pay period. Throw a cat in bathwater, would not work. Almost every dime they made over 24 hours went to the Feds, until they got somewhere over 30 hours.

Asking people to bust their ass for free does not work.

THat's just a bad bracket design. You don't need a flat tax to ensure that each marginal dollar of earnings results in a marginal increase in pay.

I think it impossible to design a bracket where there is no penalty for changing brackets.

Flat tax and be done with it. Or do a flat consumption tax, and be done with it. In voters and taxes, the word "progressive" means everybody is going to get fucked.

[Axtremus]

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better.

Sounds like “beating will continue until morale improves.”

[Jolly]

@Axtremus said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better.

Sounds like “beating will continue until morale improves.”

Wrong, as usual.

It means as that a person strives to do better, there is no bracket creep, no surprises. For every extra dollar they make, they will know exactly what their net will be.

That is a powerful and tangible goad to succeed.

[Doctor Phibes]

It's funny, all those management courses told me that money wasn't a good motivator to make people succeed.

Of course, they were being run by people who had to pay the wages.

[Renauda]

We have a flat income tax rate provincially. Does not work. Since they won’t tax the oil companies at the wellhead, what is needed is a consumption tax at the provincial level. They continue refuse to introduce one.

I agree with Phibes.

[LuFins Dad]

@Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

From what I read there are “prebates”. Everybody gets $X dollars per month to cover the taxes that would be paid up to a certain expenditure level. I didn’t see the actual numbers, but the intent is that you aren’t effectively paying taxes until you reach middle class expenditures.

It’s a badly conceived publicity move, but there are elements that would close the loopholes used by a lot of wealthy people.

It would also close the loop on a lot of people that evade taxes through cash transactions. 10% cash discounts from contractors become a thing of the past…

[Aqua Letifer]

@Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

It's funny, all those management courses told me that money wasn't a good motivator to make people succeed.

Of course, they were being run by people who had to pay the wages.

I once worked at a non-profit where the CEO actually presented this idea to us in an all-staff. But the manner in which he did so was just as amazing.

"I've been doing a lot of digging to learn how to better serve the rest of you, and based on the latest research from the Covey Leadership Center, it turns out that the rest of you are not actually motivated by money, but the mission of the organization you wish to serve!"

The rest of the meeting completely derailed when the entire staff fumbled terribly through how to say they care very much about their wages without getting fired.

Quite fucking obviously, not everyone makes enough to take the problem of money off the table.

That guy was a cunt.

[jon-nyc]

@LuFins-Dad said in 30% national sales tax?:

It would also close the loop on a lot of people that evade taxes through cash transactions. 10% cash discounts from contractors become a thing of the past…

How so? Instead of the motivation coming from the contractor who doesn’t want to pay income taxes it would come from the homeowner who doesn’t want to pay 30% extra.

[Doctor Phibes]

The idea that the wealthy would have their tax loopholes closed is a little unicornesque.

If it were true, a cynic would probably question whether the Republicans were serious about the suggestion. Thank goodness nobody here fits that description.

Personally, I don't want a massive tax cut for the super-rich. Does anybody (with the obvious exception of the super-rich)?

And the idea that the folks who are already working two jobs in order to put food on their family would somehow benefit from the extra motivation is just plain bollocks. You're trying to punish people who may be gaming the benefits system, but you're going to punish everybody in that wage-bracket - there are plenty of people working their asses off for not much reward.

[LuFins Dad]

@jon-nyc said in 30% national sales tax?:

@LuFins-Dad said in 30% national sales tax?:

It would also close the loop on a lot of people that evade taxes through cash transactions. 10% cash discounts from contractors become a thing of the past…

How so? Instead of the motivation coming from the contractor who doesn’t want to pay income taxes it would come from the homeowner who doesn’t want to pay 30% extra.

1. There’s no benefit to the contractor to offer the discount. A negotiation is to find mutual benefit. There is no mutual benefit there.

2. The contract will be the one paying the sales taxes on the materials. They will pass that costs along…

3. Unless I’m mistaken, there will not be a sales tax on sevice costs/labor.

[Jolly]

@Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

It's funny, all those management courses told me that money wasn't a good motivator to make people succeed.

Of course, they were being run by people who had to pay the wages.

Right now, among certain vocations within healthcare, there is a bidding war. Hospitals are partially to blame, because of what they've paid the travelers...When you're working side-by-side with someone making $10-$15 more per hour and you're more efficient with more responsibility, guess what? You quit and become a traveler, too. Hey, 401k's are portable.

That's happened in nursing. It's happened in the lab. Don't know about the rest of the ancillaries.

Money talks, bullshit walks.

[Axtremus]

@LuFins-Dad said in 30% national sales tax?:

3. Unless I’m mistaken, there will not be a sales tax on sevice costs/labor.

The American economy is over 75% "services." After you exempt 75% of the economy from taxes, factor in the exclusions of "essentials" and/or advance credits for the low income folks ... what tax rate you figure will need to apply to the remaining less than 25% of the "goods" economy to make the numbers work?

[Mik]

Its possible to design progressive brackets that don’t penalize as income increases. To wit:

Up to 50,000, tax is 15%. On the next 25,000 you pay 20%, and so on. Under current brackets if you made 75,000 you would pay 20% on all of it. It’s fixable.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Mik said in 30% national sales tax?:

Its possible to design progressive brackets that don’t penalize as income increases. To wit:

Up to 50,000, tax is 15%. On the next 25,000 you pay 20%, and so on. Under current brackets if you made 75,000 you would pay 20% on all of it. It’s fixable.

Absolutely, there can always be changes made. The flat rate is an extreme solution that doesn't sense since apart from anything else it's politically impossible to implement.