30% national sales tax?

[Doctor Phibes]

@LuFins-Dad said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

Taxing poor people proportionally more than rich people seems like an electoral challenge.

Maybe the guy who suggested it just asked all his rich friends if they thought it was a good idea, and moved forward on that basis?

The proposals that I’ve seen in the past have all had tax-exempt cards for lower incomes.

Under this proposal Elon Musk would have paid taxes every year whether he had any income or not. Same as Trump…

Yeah, but you're not taxing income, you're taxing expenditure. As people get richer, they need to spend a lower and lower proportion of what they earn. This system would therefore tax rich people less than poor people. You can cut the lowest rung (i.e. very low incomes) out of the system, but the problem remains.

You're also discouraging personal expenditure, which doesn't seem likely to keep the economy thriving. I'd be willing to bet that the likelihood of a recession occurring would be significantly increased by this philosophy.

[Jolly]

Tax everybody. Equally.

That way, everybody has skin in the game.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

Tax everybody. Equally.

That way, everybody has skin in the game.

Well, you've captured the all important 1%-er vote.

Now, how do you get the rest?

[jon-nyc]

@Horace said in 30% national sales tax?:

I suppose it's not all bad to bring methods of taxation up for discussion, though the strategy of bringing this one to a vote is questionable.

Bringing this up for a vote was one of the concessions McCarthy made to the MAGA crowd

[jon-nyc]

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

It's often said that if American were paid in cash by a person sitting at a table who first put their entire pay on the table and then took away SS, Medicare tax, federal tax, state tax, local tax, an average amount of sales taxes, property tax and any other taxes or taxes masquerading as fees...Well, there would be rioting in the streets.

Gingrich back in the day used to talk about how most middle class Americans could tell you, sometimes to the penny, what their refund was or what they owed in April, but very few could tell you what their total tax was.

He added that if there were no withholding and Americans had to write monthly checks then government would become a mere shadow of its former self.

[Jolly]

@Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

Tax everybody. Equally.

That way, everybody has skin in the game.

Well, you've captured the all important 1%-er vote.

Now, how do you get the rest?

Franklin knew that once people knew they could vote themselves money, the Republic was doomed.

The solution to that is for everybody to pay taxes. When voting for this bridge, for this state university's request, for this national defense budget, the money needs to come out of every citizen in the city, in the state, in the country.

Maybe that's oversimplified, but the people need to decide what they need, based on the funds that everybody has had a part in generating . I think people would hold politicians more accountable for how their money is spent.

So, less money will be spent, but we'll have more to show for it

[Copper]

Like most retirees we live off savings.

That money has already been taxed.

Replacing income tax with sales tax would tax my savings all over again.

Money already taxed would have to be exempt .

[jon-nyc]

@Copper Well, most people's 401k and IRA funds haven't been taxed, nor has social security.

But many seniors spend pretty much all of their income, so suddenly they'd be paying 30% in federal taxes.

[Doctor Phibes]

I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

[Jolly]

@jon-nyc said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Copper Well, most people's 401k and IRA funds haven't been taxed, nor has social security.

But many seniors spend pretty much all of their income, so suddenly they'd be paying 30% in federal taxes.

Above a certain income level (and it ain't much), you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

[jon-nyc]

@Jolly True that, I was making the point that for most seniors, the majority of their spending comes from sources not previously taxed (unlike post-tax investments made pre-retirement)

[George K]

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

Isn't that taxed at 15%?

[Jolly]

@Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

That's where I disagree.

I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better. If a person takes that second job, if a person starts a business, if a person works overtime, he knows that for every dollar he makes, he gets to keep x percentage.

Back when I used to work a crew, you could not make them work over 24 hours OT in a pay period. Throw a cat in bathwater, would not work. Almost every dime they made over 24 hours went to the Feds, until they got somewhere over 30 hours.

Asking people to bust their ass for free does not work.

[LuFins Dad]

@George-K said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

Isn't that taxed at 15%?

I believe it still depends on what your total income is.

[jon-nyc]

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better. If a person takes that second job, if a person starts a business, if a person works overtime, he knows that for every dollar he makes, he gets to keep x percentage.

Back when I used to work a crew, you could not make them work over 24 hours OT in a pay period. Throw a cat in bathwater, would not work. Almost every dime they made over 24 hours went to the Feds, until they got somewhere over 30 hours.

Asking people to bust their ass for free does not work.

THat's just a bad bracket design. You don't need a flat tax to ensure that each marginal dollar of earnings results in a marginal increase in pay.

[Jolly]

@jon-nyc said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better. If a person takes that second job, if a person starts a business, if a person works overtime, he knows that for every dollar he makes, he gets to keep x percentage.

Back when I used to work a crew, you could not make them work over 24 hours OT in a pay period. Throw a cat in bathwater, would not work. Almost every dime they made over 24 hours went to the Feds, until they got somewhere over 30 hours.

Asking people to bust their ass for free does not work.

THat's just a bad bracket design. You don't need a flat tax to ensure that each marginal dollar of earnings results in a marginal increase in pay.

I think it impossible to design a bracket where there is no penalty for changing brackets.

Flat tax and be done with it. Or do a flat consumption tax, and be done with it. In voters and taxes, the word "progressive" means everybody is going to get fucked.

[Axtremus]

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better.

Sounds like “beating will continue until morale improves.”

[Jolly]

@Axtremus said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better.

Sounds like “beating will continue until morale improves.”

Wrong, as usual.

It means as that a person strives to do better, there is no bracket creep, no surprises. For every extra dollar they make, they will know exactly what their net will be.

That is a powerful and tangible goad to succeed.

[Doctor Phibes]

It's funny, all those management courses told me that money wasn't a good motivator to make people succeed.

Of course, they were being run by people who had to pay the wages.

[Renauda]

We have a flat income tax rate provincially. Does not work. Since they won’t tax the oil companies at the wellhead, what is needed is a consumption tax at the provincial level. They continue refuse to introduce one.

I agree with Phibes.