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The New Coffee Room

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  3. 30% national sales tax?

30% national sales tax?

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  • JollyJ Jolly

    It's often said that if American were paid in cash by a person sitting at a table who first put their entire pay on the table and then took away SS, Medicare tax, federal tax, state tax, local tax, an average amount of sales taxes, property tax and any other taxes or taxes masquerading as fees...Well, there would be rioting in the streets.

    jon-nycJ Online
    jon-nycJ Online
    jon-nyc
    wrote on last edited by
    #17

    @Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

    It's often said that if American were paid in cash by a person sitting at a table who first put their entire pay on the table and then took away SS, Medicare tax, federal tax, state tax, local tax, an average amount of sales taxes, property tax and any other taxes or taxes masquerading as fees...Well, there would be rioting in the streets.

    Gingrich back in the day used to talk about how most middle class Americans could tell you, sometimes to the penny, what their refund was or what they owed in April, but very few could tell you what their total tax was.

    He added that if there were no withholding and Americans had to write monthly checks then government would become a mere shadow of its former self.

    You were warned.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

      @Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

      Tax everybody. Equally.

      That way, everybody has skin in the game.

      Well, you've captured the all important 1%-er vote.

      Now, how do you get the rest?

      JollyJ Offline
      JollyJ Offline
      Jolly
      wrote on last edited by
      #18

      @Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

      @Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

      Tax everybody. Equally.

      That way, everybody has skin in the game.

      Well, you've captured the all important 1%-er vote.

      Now, how do you get the rest?

      Franklin knew that once people knew they could vote themselves money, the Republic was doomed.

      The solution to that is for everybody to pay taxes. When voting for this bridge, for this state university's request, for this national defense budget, the money needs to come out of every citizen in the city, in the state, in the country.

      Maybe that's oversimplified, but the people need to decide what they need, based on the funds that everybody has had a part in generating . I think people would hold politicians more accountable for how their money is spent.

      So, less money will be spent, but we'll have more to show for it

      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

      1 Reply Last reply
      • CopperC Offline
        CopperC Offline
        Copper
        wrote on last edited by
        #19

        Like most retirees we live off savings.

        That money has already been taxed.

        Replacing income tax with sales tax would tax my savings all over again.

        Money already taxed would have to be exempt .

        jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
        • CopperC Copper

          Like most retirees we live off savings.

          That money has already been taxed.

          Replacing income tax with sales tax would tax my savings all over again.

          Money already taxed would have to be exempt .

          jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by
          #20

          @Copper Well, most people's 401k and IRA funds haven't been taxed, nor has social security.

          But many seniors spend pretty much all of their income, so suddenly they'd be paying 30% in federal taxes.

          You were warned.

          JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
          • Doctor PhibesD Online
            Doctor PhibesD Online
            Doctor Phibes
            wrote on last edited by
            #21

            I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

            I was only joking

            JollyJ LuFins DadL 2 Replies Last reply
            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

              @Copper Well, most people's 401k and IRA funds haven't been taxed, nor has social security.

              But many seniors spend pretty much all of their income, so suddenly they'd be paying 30% in federal taxes.

              JollyJ Offline
              JollyJ Offline
              Jolly
              wrote on last edited by
              #22

              @jon-nyc said in 30% national sales tax?:

              @Copper Well, most people's 401k and IRA funds haven't been taxed, nor has social security.

              But many seniors spend pretty much all of their income, so suddenly they'd be paying 30% in federal taxes.

              Above a certain income level (and it ain't much), you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

              jon-nycJ George KG 2 Replies Last reply
              • JollyJ Jolly

                @jon-nyc said in 30% national sales tax?:

                @Copper Well, most people's 401k and IRA funds haven't been taxed, nor has social security.

                But many seniors spend pretty much all of their income, so suddenly they'd be paying 30% in federal taxes.

                Above a certain income level (and it ain't much), you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

                jon-nycJ Online
                jon-nycJ Online
                jon-nyc
                wrote on last edited by
                #23

                @Jolly True that, I was making the point that for most seniors, the majority of their spending comes from sources not previously taxed (unlike post-tax investments made pre-retirement)

                You were warned.

                1 Reply Last reply
                • JollyJ Jolly

                  @jon-nyc said in 30% national sales tax?:

                  @Copper Well, most people's 401k and IRA funds haven't been taxed, nor has social security.

                  But many seniors spend pretty much all of their income, so suddenly they'd be paying 30% in federal taxes.

                  Above a certain income level (and it ain't much), you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

                  George KG Offline
                  George KG Offline
                  George K
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #24

                  @Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

                  you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

                  Isn't that taxed at 15%?

                  "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                  The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                  LuFins DadL 1 Reply Last reply
                  • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                    I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

                    JollyJ Offline
                    JollyJ Offline
                    Jolly
                    wrote on last edited by Jolly
                    #25

                    @Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

                    I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

                    That's where I disagree.

                    I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better. If a person takes that second job, if a person starts a business, if a person works overtime, he knows that for every dollar he makes, he gets to keep x percentage.

                    Back when I used to work a crew, you could not make them work over 24 hours OT in a pay period. Throw a cat in bathwater, would not work. Almost every dime they made over 24 hours went to the Feds, until they got somewhere over 30 hours.

                    Asking people to bust their ass for free does not work.

                    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                    jon-nycJ AxtremusA 2 Replies Last reply
                    • George KG George K

                      @Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

                      you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

                      Isn't that taxed at 15%?

                      LuFins DadL Offline
                      LuFins DadL Offline
                      LuFins Dad
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #26

                      @George-K said in 30% national sales tax?:

                      @Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

                      you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

                      Isn't that taxed at 15%?

                      I believe it still depends on what your total income is.

                      The Brad

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • JollyJ Jolly

                        @Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

                        I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

                        That's where I disagree.

                        I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better. If a person takes that second job, if a person starts a business, if a person works overtime, he knows that for every dollar he makes, he gets to keep x percentage.

                        Back when I used to work a crew, you could not make them work over 24 hours OT in a pay period. Throw a cat in bathwater, would not work. Almost every dime they made over 24 hours went to the Feds, until they got somewhere over 30 hours.

                        Asking people to bust their ass for free does not work.

                        jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #27

                        @Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

                        I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better. If a person takes that second job, if a person starts a business, if a person works overtime, he knows that for every dollar he makes, he gets to keep x percentage.

                        Back when I used to work a crew, you could not make them work over 24 hours OT in a pay period. Throw a cat in bathwater, would not work. Almost every dime they made over 24 hours went to the Feds, until they got somewhere over 30 hours.

                        Asking people to bust their ass for free does not work.

                        THat's just a bad bracket design. You don't need a flat tax to ensure that each marginal dollar of earnings results in a marginal increase in pay.

                        You were warned.

                        JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                          @Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

                          I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better. If a person takes that second job, if a person starts a business, if a person works overtime, he knows that for every dollar he makes, he gets to keep x percentage.

                          Back when I used to work a crew, you could not make them work over 24 hours OT in a pay period. Throw a cat in bathwater, would not work. Almost every dime they made over 24 hours went to the Feds, until they got somewhere over 30 hours.

                          Asking people to bust their ass for free does not work.

                          THat's just a bad bracket design. You don't need a flat tax to ensure that each marginal dollar of earnings results in a marginal increase in pay.

                          JollyJ Offline
                          JollyJ Offline
                          Jolly
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #28

                          @jon-nyc said in 30% national sales tax?:

                          @Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

                          I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better. If a person takes that second job, if a person starts a business, if a person works overtime, he knows that for every dollar he makes, he gets to keep x percentage.

                          Back when I used to work a crew, you could not make them work over 24 hours OT in a pay period. Throw a cat in bathwater, would not work. Almost every dime they made over 24 hours went to the Feds, until they got somewhere over 30 hours.

                          Asking people to bust their ass for free does not work.

                          THat's just a bad bracket design. You don't need a flat tax to ensure that each marginal dollar of earnings results in a marginal increase in pay.

                          I think it impossible to design a bracket where there is no penalty for changing brackets.

                          Flat tax and be done with it. Or do a flat consumption tax, and be done with it. In voters and taxes, the word "progressive" means everybody is going to get fucked.

                          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • JollyJ Jolly

                            @Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

                            I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

                            That's where I disagree.

                            I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better. If a person takes that second job, if a person starts a business, if a person works overtime, he knows that for every dollar he makes, he gets to keep x percentage.

                            Back when I used to work a crew, you could not make them work over 24 hours OT in a pay period. Throw a cat in bathwater, would not work. Almost every dime they made over 24 hours went to the Feds, until they got somewhere over 30 hours.

                            Asking people to bust their ass for free does not work.

                            AxtremusA Away
                            AxtremusA Away
                            Axtremus
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #29

                            @Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

                            I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better.

                            Sounds like “beating will continue until morale improves.”

                            JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                            • AxtremusA Axtremus

                              @Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

                              I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better.

                              Sounds like “beating will continue until morale improves.”

                              JollyJ Offline
                              JollyJ Offline
                              Jolly
                              wrote on last edited by Jolly
                              #30

                              @Axtremus said in 30% national sales tax?:

                              @Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

                              I do agree that it impacts the poor more. But I also think it gives a huge incentive to do better.

                              Sounds like “beating will continue until morale improves.”

                              Wrong, as usual.

                              It means as that a person strives to do better, there is no bracket creep, no surprises. For every extra dollar they make, they will know exactly what their net will be.

                              That is a powerful and tangible goad to succeed.

                              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • Doctor PhibesD Online
                                Doctor PhibesD Online
                                Doctor Phibes
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #31

                                It's funny, all those management courses told me that money wasn't a good motivator to make people succeed.

                                Of course, they were being run by people who had to pay the wages.

                                I was only joking

                                Aqua LetiferA JollyJ 2 Replies Last reply
                                • RenaudaR Offline
                                  RenaudaR Offline
                                  Renauda
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #32

                                  We have a flat income tax rate provincially. Does not work. Since they won’t tax the oil companies at the wellhead, what is needed is a consumption tax at the provincial level. They continue refuse to introduce one.

                                  I agree with Phibes.

                                  Elbows up!

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                                    I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

                                    LuFins DadL Offline
                                    LuFins DadL Offline
                                    LuFins Dad
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #33

                                    @Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

                                    I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

                                    From what I read there are “prebates”. Everybody gets $X dollars per month to cover the taxes that would be paid up to a certain expenditure level. I didn’t see the actual numbers, but the intent is that you aren’t effectively paying taxes until you reach middle class expenditures.

                                    It’s a badly conceived publicity move, but there are elements that would close the loopholes used by a lot of wealthy people.

                                    It would also close the loop on a lot of people that evade taxes through cash transactions. 10% cash discounts from contractors become a thing of the past…

                                    The Brad

                                    jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                    • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                                      It's funny, all those management courses told me that money wasn't a good motivator to make people succeed.

                                      Of course, they were being run by people who had to pay the wages.

                                      Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                      Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                      Aqua Letifer
                                      wrote on last edited by Aqua Letifer
                                      #34

                                      @Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

                                      It's funny, all those management courses told me that money wasn't a good motivator to make people succeed.

                                      Of course, they were being run by people who had to pay the wages.

                                      I once worked at a non-profit where the CEO actually presented this idea to us in an all-staff. But the manner in which he did so was just as amazing.

                                      "I've been doing a lot of digging to learn how to better serve the rest of you, and based on the latest research from the Covey Leadership Center, it turns out that the rest of you are not actually motivated by money, but the mission of the organization you wish to serve!"

                                      The rest of the meeting completely derailed when the entire staff fumbled terribly through how to say they care very much about their wages without getting fired.

                                      Quite fucking obviously, not everyone makes enough to take the problem of money off the table.

                                      That guy was a cunt.

                                      Please love yourself.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                                        @Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

                                        I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

                                        From what I read there are “prebates”. Everybody gets $X dollars per month to cover the taxes that would be paid up to a certain expenditure level. I didn’t see the actual numbers, but the intent is that you aren’t effectively paying taxes until you reach middle class expenditures.

                                        It’s a badly conceived publicity move, but there are elements that would close the loopholes used by a lot of wealthy people.

                                        It would also close the loop on a lot of people that evade taxes through cash transactions. 10% cash discounts from contractors become a thing of the past…

                                        jon-nycJ Online
                                        jon-nycJ Online
                                        jon-nyc
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #35

                                        @LuFins-Dad said in 30% national sales tax?:

                                        It would also close the loop on a lot of people that evade taxes through cash transactions. 10% cash discounts from contractors become a thing of the past…

                                        How so? Instead of the motivation coming from the contractor who doesn’t want to pay income taxes it would come from the homeowner who doesn’t want to pay 30% extra.

                                        You were warned.

                                        LuFins DadL 1 Reply Last reply
                                        • Doctor PhibesD Online
                                          Doctor PhibesD Online
                                          Doctor Phibes
                                          wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
                                          #36

                                          The idea that the wealthy would have their tax loopholes closed is a little unicornesque.

                                          If it were true, a cynic would probably question whether the Republicans were serious about the suggestion. Thank goodness nobody here fits that description.

                                          Personally, I don't want a massive tax cut for the super-rich. Does anybody (with the obvious exception of the super-rich)?

                                          And the idea that the folks who are already working two jobs in order to put food on their family would somehow benefit from the extra motivation is just plain bollocks. You're trying to punish people who may be gaming the benefits system, but you're going to punish everybody in that wage-bracket - there are plenty of people working their asses off for not much reward.

                                          I was only joking

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