Meanwhile, at Harvard...
-
I fear yesterday will become known as the day the right effectively signed off on hate-speech laws.
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 14:05 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
I fear yesterday will become known as the day the right effectively signed off on hate-speech laws.
Imagine all those both sides are equal posts whenever anybody on the right complains about free speech. Terrifying indeed.
-
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 14:07 last edited by
Is burning a cross "free speech?"
-
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 14:12 last edited by
I'm a bit extreme, but sure...burn the cross. Tell someone you support genocide. Free speech laws are meant to protect the stuff that makes you uncomfortable, not the easy stuff. I tell my kids whenever a sibling tells another one "You're a booty butt!" (a very common insult when the 5 year old tries to get the 3 year old to cry). I tell them they are just words. Air and sound. They don't hurt and to ignore it. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words cannot hurt me...
-
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.
More from FIRE. A little less nuanced.
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 14:12 last edited by@George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.
More from FIRE. A little less nuanced.
It's certainly true that whatever speech and thought policing power is accumulated due to this, will be abused by the problem glass wearing middle aged progressive females in charge of the institutions. Maybe it's been 4D chess all along. Introduce an authoritarian idea blatantly biased against one political tribe, then watch them embrace the weapon when they see a chance to turn it on the other side. It's completely rational. What would any of us choose, between an unprincipled weapon used against our side exclusively, or an unprincipled weapon applied to everybody? Look to the chimp fairness experiment, there's your answer.
-
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 14:13 last edited by
BTW the Penn statement was a good one, although she could've gone the "all lives matter" route and said the call for genocide of ANY group is wrong. I wonder if they were scared in congress to agree as they'd risk Muslim protests at their school?
-
I'm a bit extreme, but sure...burn the cross. Tell someone you support genocide. Free speech laws are meant to protect the stuff that makes you uncomfortable, not the easy stuff. I tell my kids whenever a sibling tells another one "You're a booty butt!" (a very common insult when the 5 year old tries to get the 3 year old to cry). I tell them they are just words. Air and sound. They don't hurt and to ignore it. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words cannot hurt me...
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 14:14 last edited by@89th said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
I'm a bit extreme, but sure...burn the cross. Tell someone you support genocide. Free speech laws are meant to protect the stuff that makes you uncomfortable, not the easy stuff. I tell my kids whenever a sibling tells another one "You're a booty butt!" (a very common insult when the 5 year old tries to get the 3 year old to cry). I tell them they are just words. Air and sound. They don't hurt and to ignore it. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words cannot hurt me...
I'm totally down with free speech absolutism, but as a practical matter, I like to consider what is possible, and the least bad options among them.
-
BTW the Penn statement was a good one, although she could've gone the "all lives matter" route and said the call for genocide of ANY group is wrong. I wonder if they were scared in congress to agree as they'd risk Muslim protests at their school?
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 14:15 last edited by@89th said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
BTW the Penn statement was a good one, although she could've gone the "all lives matter" route and said the call for genocide of ANY group is wrong. I wonder if they were scared in congress to agree as they'd risk Muslim protests at their school?
There may have been a followup question loaded up regarding the lack of sanctions handed out thus far.
-
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 14:18 last edited by
@George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Is burning a cross "free speech?"
Scotus ruled blanket bans are unconstitutional but can be banned if the intent to intimidate is shown.
-
@89th said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
BTW the Penn statement was a good one, although she could've gone the "all lives matter" route and said the call for genocide of ANY group is wrong. I wonder if they were scared in congress to agree as they'd risk Muslim protests at their school?
There may have been a followup question loaded up regarding the lack of sanctions handed out thus far.
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 14:22 last edited by@Horace said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
There may have been a followup question loaded up regarding the lack of sanctions handed out thus far.
Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses? I know there was in Australia, but given how I still hear the Aussie example thrown around I kind of assumed they haven’t had any cases closer to home.
-
@Horace said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
There may have been a followup question loaded up regarding the lack of sanctions handed out thus far.
Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses? I know there was in Australia, but given how I still hear the Aussie example thrown around I kind of assumed they haven’t had any cases closer to home.
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 14:26 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Horace said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
There may have been a followup question loaded up regarding the lack of sanctions handed out thus far.
Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses? I know there was in Australia, but given how I still hear the Aussie example thrown around I kind of assumed they haven’t had any cases closer to home.
Maybe the time they caught "gas the jews" on video, was in Times Square rather than a campus. By certain framings, a few different catch phrases have been labeled genocidal, but that sort of language ambiguity will be where the bias will once again come into play, and once again against certain political tribes.
-
@Horace said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
There may have been a followup question loaded up regarding the lack of sanctions handed out thus far.
Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses? I know there was in Australia, but given how I still hear the Aussie example thrown around I kind of assumed they haven’t had any cases closer to home.
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 14:36 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses?
Not those campuses.
https://forward.com/fast-forward/566967/cooper-union-library-jewish-students-hide-protest/
A number of Jewish students at Cooper Union college in Manhattan said they feared for their safety Wednesday when pro-Palestinian protesters banged on the locked door of the library where they were sheltering and chanted “Globalize the Intifada.”
“I really, truly believe they would have done physical assault if they came in,” said one of the students, a first year, speaking on the condition of anonymity out of security concerns. “For me it was like: How could it get to this point?”
...
The first-year student, who is 19, said that two Jewish people, one wearing a yarmulke, were sitting by the window, and that the protesters began banging on the glass from outside.The protestors might, might, be ignorant of what "intifada" means, but the Jewish students are not.
Looks pretty cross-burn-ey to me.
-
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses?
Not those campuses.
https://forward.com/fast-forward/566967/cooper-union-library-jewish-students-hide-protest/
A number of Jewish students at Cooper Union college in Manhattan said they feared for their safety Wednesday when pro-Palestinian protesters banged on the locked door of the library where they were sheltering and chanted “Globalize the Intifada.”
“I really, truly believe they would have done physical assault if they came in,” said one of the students, a first year, speaking on the condition of anonymity out of security concerns. “For me it was like: How could it get to this point?”
...
The first-year student, who is 19, said that two Jewish people, one wearing a yarmulke, were sitting by the window, and that the protesters began banging on the glass from outside.The protestors might, might, be ignorant of what "intifada" means, but the Jewish students are not.
Looks pretty cross-burn-ey to me.
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 15:03 last edited by@George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses?
Not those campuses.
https://forward.com/fast-forward/566967/cooper-union-library-jewish-students-hide-protest/
A number of Jewish students at Cooper Union college in Manhattan said they feared for their safety Wednesday when pro-Palestinian protesters banged on the locked door of the library where they were sheltering and chanted “Globalize the Intifada.”
“I really, truly believe they would have done physical assault if they came in,” said one of the students, a first year, speaking on the condition of anonymity out of security concerns. “For me it was like: How could it get to this point?”
...
The first-year student, who is 19, said that two Jewish people, one wearing a yarmulke, were sitting by the window, and that the protesters began banging on the glass from outside.The protestors might, might, be ignorant of what "intifada" means, but the Jewish students are not.
Looks pretty cross-burn-ey to me.
What exactly does intifada mean? I always thought it essentially meant revolution
? -
@George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses?
Not those campuses.
https://forward.com/fast-forward/566967/cooper-union-library-jewish-students-hide-protest/
A number of Jewish students at Cooper Union college in Manhattan said they feared for their safety Wednesday when pro-Palestinian protesters banged on the locked door of the library where they were sheltering and chanted “Globalize the Intifada.”
“I really, truly believe they would have done physical assault if they came in,” said one of the students, a first year, speaking on the condition of anonymity out of security concerns. “For me it was like: How could it get to this point?”
...
The first-year student, who is 19, said that two Jewish people, one wearing a yarmulke, were sitting by the window, and that the protesters began banging on the glass from outside.The protestors might, might, be ignorant of what "intifada" means, but the Jewish students are not.
Looks pretty cross-burn-ey to me.
What exactly does intifada mean? I always thought it essentially meant revolution
?wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 15:07 last edited by@LuFins-Dad said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
What exactly does intifada mean? I always thought it essentially meant revolution
Context is important, I'm told.
In this context - revolution against Jewish occupation - IOW, war.
-
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 15:09 last edited by jon-nyc 12 Jul 2023, 15:11
It means uprising. It means getting The Man off your back through violent and non-violent protest. It’s not a call for extermination though surely many intifada practitioners would push the genocide button if they had one.
@Horace - the ‘gas the Jews’ protest oft referred to was the Australian one I mention.
I have no doubt you could hear it in Times Square or in London during the protests, I just haven’t heard of it being used at US Campuses.
@George-K - yes, very bad and very explicitly intimidation. Stefanik didn’t ask about that, probably because there’s no ‘gothcha’ to be had there.
-
It means uprising. It means getting The Man off your back through violent and non-violent protest. It’s not a call for extermination though surely many intifada practitioners would push the genocide button if they had one.
@Horace - the ‘gas the Jews’ protest oft referred to was the Australian one I mention.
I have no doubt you could hear it in Times Square or in London during the protests, I just haven’t heard of it being used at US Campuses.
@George-K - yes, very bad and very explicitly intimidation. Stefanik didn’t ask about that, probably because there’s no ‘gothcha’ to be had there.
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 15:13 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Stefanik didn’t ask about that, probably because there’s no ‘gothcha’ to be had there.
Or, perhaps because the president of that school wasn't present, or even requested to be present.
-
@LuFins-Dad said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
What exactly does intifada mean? I always thought it essentially meant revolution
Context is important, I'm told.
In this context - revolution against Jewish occupation - IOW, war.
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 15:34 last edited by@George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@LuFins-Dad said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
What exactly does intifada mean? I always thought it essentially meant revolution
Context is important, I'm told.
In this context - revolution against Jewish occupation - IOW, war.
I don’t really see an issue with that being spoken or chanted at a campus protest. The word is not the issue. The very evident physical intimation of personal violence is the issue.
-
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 16:03 last edited by jon-nyc 12 Jul 2023, 16:04
We have a former board member who is the head of the university senate of the other big Ivy League school that made the news a lot due to protests. I was on a call with her today and asked how they avoided being at the grilling.
Their president, a former world bank exec, was at the big global climate meeting (COP28) so they got out of it.
FWIW she blamed the lawyers for why these folks on the stand had to be so wishy-washy.
-
@89th said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
I'm a bit extreme, but sure...burn the cross. Tell someone you support genocide. Free speech laws are meant to protect the stuff that makes you uncomfortable, not the easy stuff. I tell my kids whenever a sibling tells another one "You're a booty butt!" (a very common insult when the 5 year old tries to get the 3 year old to cry). I tell them they are just words. Air and sound. They don't hurt and to ignore it. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words cannot hurt me...
I'm totally down with free speech absolutism, but as a practical matter, I like to consider what is possible, and the least bad options among them.
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 16:05 last edited by@Horace said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
I'm totally down with free speech absolutism
No problem, I agree with that, say whatever you want.
Of course that is after a quick check by the State Department for disinformation.
-
Sorry, but this is all a result of decades worth of accepting and even promoting criminal harassment, intimidation, and extortion and calling it free speech, while punishing and belittling those that peacefully assemble and express themselves.
Harassment and intimidation is not a policy issue for Presidents and Chancellors to debate, it’s a policing issue.
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 18:39 last edited by@LuFins-Dad said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Sorry, but this is all a result of decades worth of accepting and even promoting criminal harassment, intimidation, and extortion and calling it free speech, while punishing and belittling those that peacefully assemble and express themselves.
Harassment and intimidation is not a policy issue for Presidents and Chancellors to debate, it’s a policing issue.
Hear! Hear!
-
wrote on 7 Dec 2023, 18:40 last edited by
@George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Is burning a cross "free speech?"
As long as you don't do it in a theater and yell, "Fire!"?