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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Meanwhile, at Harvard...

Meanwhile, at Harvard...

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  • George KG George K

    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

    FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

    More from FIRE. A little less nuanced.

    HoraceH Offline
    HoraceH Offline
    Horace
    wrote on last edited by
    #128

    @George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

    FIRE President Greg Lukianoff with a principled take as you would expect.

    More from FIRE. A little less nuanced.

    It's certainly true that whatever speech and thought policing power is accumulated due to this, will be abused by the problem glass wearing middle aged progressive females in charge of the institutions. Maybe it's been 4D chess all along. Introduce an authoritarian idea blatantly biased against one political tribe, then watch them embrace the weapon when they see a chance to turn it on the other side. It's completely rational. What would any of us choose, between an unprincipled weapon used against our side exclusively, or an unprincipled weapon applied to everybody? Look to the chimp fairness experiment, there's your answer.

    Education is extremely important.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • 89th8 Offline
      89th8 Offline
      89th
      wrote on last edited by
      #129

      BTW the Penn statement was a good one, although she could've gone the "all lives matter" route and said the call for genocide of ANY group is wrong. I wonder if they were scared in congress to agree as they'd risk Muslim protests at their school?

      HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
      • 89th8 89th

        I'm a bit extreme, but sure...burn the cross. Tell someone you support genocide. Free speech laws are meant to protect the stuff that makes you uncomfortable, not the easy stuff. I tell my kids whenever a sibling tells another one "You're a booty butt!" (a very common insult when the 5 year old tries to get the 3 year old to cry). I tell them they are just words. Air and sound. They don't hurt and to ignore it. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words cannot hurt me...

        HoraceH Offline
        HoraceH Offline
        Horace
        wrote on last edited by
        #130

        @89th said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

        I'm a bit extreme, but sure...burn the cross. Tell someone you support genocide. Free speech laws are meant to protect the stuff that makes you uncomfortable, not the easy stuff. I tell my kids whenever a sibling tells another one "You're a booty butt!" (a very common insult when the 5 year old tries to get the 3 year old to cry). I tell them they are just words. Air and sound. They don't hurt and to ignore it. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words cannot hurt me...

        I'm totally down with free speech absolutism, but as a practical matter, I like to consider what is possible, and the least bad options among them.

        Education is extremely important.

        CopperC 1 Reply Last reply
        • 89th8 89th

          BTW the Penn statement was a good one, although she could've gone the "all lives matter" route and said the call for genocide of ANY group is wrong. I wonder if they were scared in congress to agree as they'd risk Muslim protests at their school?

          HoraceH Offline
          HoraceH Offline
          Horace
          wrote on last edited by
          #131

          @89th said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

          BTW the Penn statement was a good one, although she could've gone the "all lives matter" route and said the call for genocide of ANY group is wrong. I wonder if they were scared in congress to agree as they'd risk Muslim protests at their school?

          There may have been a followup question loaded up regarding the lack of sanctions handed out thus far.

          Education is extremely important.

          jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
          • George KG George K

            Is burning a cross "free speech?"

            jon-nycJ Online
            jon-nycJ Online
            jon-nyc
            wrote on last edited by
            #132

            @George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

            Is burning a cross "free speech?"

            Scotus ruled blanket bans are unconstitutional but can be banned if the intent to intimidate is shown.

            Only non-witches get due process.

            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
            1 Reply Last reply
            • HoraceH Horace

              @89th said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

              BTW the Penn statement was a good one, although she could've gone the "all lives matter" route and said the call for genocide of ANY group is wrong. I wonder if they were scared in congress to agree as they'd risk Muslim protests at their school?

              There may have been a followup question loaded up regarding the lack of sanctions handed out thus far.

              jon-nycJ Online
              jon-nycJ Online
              jon-nyc
              wrote on last edited by
              #133

              @Horace said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

              There may have been a followup question loaded up regarding the lack of sanctions handed out thus far.

              Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses? I know there was in Australia, but given how I still hear the Aussie example thrown around I kind of assumed they haven’t had any cases closer to home.

              Only non-witches get due process.

              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
              HoraceH George KG 2 Replies Last reply
              • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                @Horace said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                There may have been a followup question loaded up regarding the lack of sanctions handed out thus far.

                Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses? I know there was in Australia, but given how I still hear the Aussie example thrown around I kind of assumed they haven’t had any cases closer to home.

                HoraceH Offline
                HoraceH Offline
                Horace
                wrote on last edited by
                #134

                @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                @Horace said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                There may have been a followup question loaded up regarding the lack of sanctions handed out thus far.

                Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses? I know there was in Australia, but given how I still hear the Aussie example thrown around I kind of assumed they haven’t had any cases closer to home.

                Maybe the time they caught "gas the jews" on video, was in Times Square rather than a campus. By certain framings, a few different catch phrases have been labeled genocidal, but that sort of language ambiguity will be where the bias will once again come into play, and once again against certain political tribes.

                Education is extremely important.

                1 Reply Last reply
                • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                  @Horace said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                  There may have been a followup question loaded up regarding the lack of sanctions handed out thus far.

                  Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses? I know there was in Australia, but given how I still hear the Aussie example thrown around I kind of assumed they haven’t had any cases closer to home.

                  George KG Offline
                  George KG Offline
                  George K
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #135

                  @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                  Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses?

                  Not those campuses.

                  https://forward.com/fast-forward/566967/cooper-union-library-jewish-students-hide-protest/

                  A number of Jewish students at Cooper Union college in Manhattan said they feared for their safety Wednesday when pro-Palestinian protesters banged on the locked door of the library where they were sheltering and chanted “Globalize the Intifada.”

                  “I really, truly believe they would have done physical assault if they came in,” said one of the students, a first year, speaking on the condition of anonymity out of security concerns. “For me it was like: How could it get to this point?”
                  ...
                  The first-year student, who is 19, said that two Jewish people, one wearing a yarmulke, were sitting by the window, and that the protesters began banging on the glass from outside.

                  The protestors might, might, be ignorant of what "intifada" means, but the Jewish students are not.

                  Looks pretty cross-burn-ey to me.

                  "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                  The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                  LuFins DadL 1 Reply Last reply
                  • George KG George K

                    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                    Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses?

                    Not those campuses.

                    https://forward.com/fast-forward/566967/cooper-union-library-jewish-students-hide-protest/

                    A number of Jewish students at Cooper Union college in Manhattan said they feared for their safety Wednesday when pro-Palestinian protesters banged on the locked door of the library where they were sheltering and chanted “Globalize the Intifada.”

                    “I really, truly believe they would have done physical assault if they came in,” said one of the students, a first year, speaking on the condition of anonymity out of security concerns. “For me it was like: How could it get to this point?”
                    ...
                    The first-year student, who is 19, said that two Jewish people, one wearing a yarmulke, were sitting by the window, and that the protesters began banging on the glass from outside.

                    The protestors might, might, be ignorant of what "intifada" means, but the Jewish students are not.

                    Looks pretty cross-burn-ey to me.

                    LuFins DadL Offline
                    LuFins DadL Offline
                    LuFins Dad
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #136

                    @George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                    Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses?

                    Not those campuses.

                    https://forward.com/fast-forward/566967/cooper-union-library-jewish-students-hide-protest/

                    A number of Jewish students at Cooper Union college in Manhattan said they feared for their safety Wednesday when pro-Palestinian protesters banged on the locked door of the library where they were sheltering and chanted “Globalize the Intifada.”

                    “I really, truly believe they would have done physical assault if they came in,” said one of the students, a first year, speaking on the condition of anonymity out of security concerns. “For me it was like: How could it get to this point?”
                    ...
                    The first-year student, who is 19, said that two Jewish people, one wearing a yarmulke, were sitting by the window, and that the protesters began banging on the glass from outside.

                    The protestors might, might, be ignorant of what "intifada" means, but the Jewish students are not.

                    Looks pretty cross-burn-ey to me.

                    What exactly does intifada mean? I always thought it essentially meant revolution
                    ?

                    The Brad

                    George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                    • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                      @George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      Have there been any cases of explicit calls for exterminating the Jews on these campuses?

                      Not those campuses.

                      https://forward.com/fast-forward/566967/cooper-union-library-jewish-students-hide-protest/

                      A number of Jewish students at Cooper Union college in Manhattan said they feared for their safety Wednesday when pro-Palestinian protesters banged on the locked door of the library where they were sheltering and chanted “Globalize the Intifada.”

                      “I really, truly believe they would have done physical assault if they came in,” said one of the students, a first year, speaking on the condition of anonymity out of security concerns. “For me it was like: How could it get to this point?”
                      ...
                      The first-year student, who is 19, said that two Jewish people, one wearing a yarmulke, were sitting by the window, and that the protesters began banging on the glass from outside.

                      The protestors might, might, be ignorant of what "intifada" means, but the Jewish students are not.

                      Looks pretty cross-burn-ey to me.

                      What exactly does intifada mean? I always thought it essentially meant revolution
                      ?

                      George KG Offline
                      George KG Offline
                      George K
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #137

                      @LuFins-Dad said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      What exactly does intifada mean? I always thought it essentially meant revolution

                      Context is important, I'm told.

                      In this context - revolution against Jewish occupation - IOW, war.

                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                      LuFins DadL 1 Reply Last reply
                      • jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                        #138

                        It means uprising. It means getting The Man off your back through violent and non-violent protest. It’s not a call for extermination though surely many intifada practitioners would push the genocide button if they had one.

                        @Horace - the ‘gas the Jews’ protest oft referred to was the Australian one I mention.

                        I have no doubt you could hear it in Times Square or in London during the protests, I just haven’t heard of it being used at US Campuses.

                        @George-K - yes, very bad and very explicitly intimidation. Stefanik didn’t ask about that, probably because there’s no ‘gothcha’ to be had there.

                        Only non-witches get due process.

                        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                        George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                          It means uprising. It means getting The Man off your back through violent and non-violent protest. It’s not a call for extermination though surely many intifada practitioners would push the genocide button if they had one.

                          @Horace - the ‘gas the Jews’ protest oft referred to was the Australian one I mention.

                          I have no doubt you could hear it in Times Square or in London during the protests, I just haven’t heard of it being used at US Campuses.

                          @George-K - yes, very bad and very explicitly intimidation. Stefanik didn’t ask about that, probably because there’s no ‘gothcha’ to be had there.

                          George KG Offline
                          George KG Offline
                          George K
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #139

                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          Stefanik didn’t ask about that, probably because there’s no ‘gothcha’ to be had there.

                          Or, perhaps because the president of that school wasn't present, or even requested to be present.

                          "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                          The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • George KG George K

                            @LuFins-Dad said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                            What exactly does intifada mean? I always thought it essentially meant revolution

                            Context is important, I'm told.

                            In this context - revolution against Jewish occupation - IOW, war.

                            LuFins DadL Offline
                            LuFins DadL Offline
                            LuFins Dad
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #140

                            @George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                            @LuFins-Dad said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                            What exactly does intifada mean? I always thought it essentially meant revolution

                            Context is important, I'm told.

                            In this context - revolution against Jewish occupation - IOW, war.

                            I don’t really see an issue with that being spoken or chanted at a campus protest. The word is not the issue. The very evident physical intimation of personal violence is the issue.

                            The Brad

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • jon-nycJ Online
                              jon-nycJ Online
                              jon-nyc
                              wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                              #141

                              We have a former board member who is the head of the university senate of the other big Ivy League school that made the news a lot due to protests. I was on a call with her today and asked how they avoided being at the grilling.

                              Their president, a former world bank exec, was at the big global climate meeting (COP28) so they got out of it.

                              FWIW she blamed the lawyers for why these folks on the stand had to be so wishy-washy.

                              Only non-witches get due process.

                              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • HoraceH Horace

                                @89th said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                I'm a bit extreme, but sure...burn the cross. Tell someone you support genocide. Free speech laws are meant to protect the stuff that makes you uncomfortable, not the easy stuff. I tell my kids whenever a sibling tells another one "You're a booty butt!" (a very common insult when the 5 year old tries to get the 3 year old to cry). I tell them they are just words. Air and sound. They don't hurt and to ignore it. "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words cannot hurt me...

                                I'm totally down with free speech absolutism, but as a practical matter, I like to consider what is possible, and the least bad options among them.

                                CopperC Offline
                                CopperC Offline
                                Copper
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #142

                                @Horace said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                I'm totally down with free speech absolutism

                                No problem, I agree with that, say whatever you want.

                                Of course that is after a quick check by the State Department for disinformation.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                                  Sorry, but this is all a result of decades worth of accepting and even promoting criminal harassment, intimidation, and extortion and calling it free speech, while punishing and belittling those that peacefully assemble and express themselves.

                                  Harassment and intimidation is not a policy issue for Presidents and Chancellors to debate, it’s a policing issue.

                                  JollyJ Offline
                                  JollyJ Offline
                                  Jolly
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #143

                                  @LuFins-Dad said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                  Sorry, but this is all a result of decades worth of accepting and even promoting criminal harassment, intimidation, and extortion and calling it free speech, while punishing and belittling those that peacefully assemble and express themselves.

                                  Harassment and intimidation is not a policy issue for Presidents and Chancellors to debate, it’s a policing issue.

                                  Hear! Hear!

                                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • George KG George K

                                    Is burning a cross "free speech?"

                                    JollyJ Offline
                                    JollyJ Offline
                                    Jolly
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #144

                                    @George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                    Is burning a cross "free speech?"

                                    As long as you don't do it in a theater and yell, "Fire!"?

                                    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • jon-nycJ Online
                                      jon-nycJ Online
                                      jon-nyc
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #145

                                      Read the thread.

                                      Only non-witches get due process.

                                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • X Offline
                                        X Offline
                                        xenon
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #146

                                        I agree that there shouldn’t be speech codes - but there effectively are at many universities and it’s pretty obvious that they’re selectively applied.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • CopperC Offline
                                          CopperC Offline
                                          Copper
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #147

                                          Most Ivy League Schools Now Have Female Presidents

                                          Mildly interesting

                                          https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/most-ivy-league-schools-now-have-female-presidents-/7179565.html#:~:text=And Claudine Gay is the,at the University of Pennsylvania.

                                          I wonder if a white male would have done any better.

                                          George KG 1 Reply Last reply
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