Advice
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I guess I'm anonymous enough I can post about this here. I wouldn't mind a DM if that makes others comfortable if they have advice, otherwise this thread is fine. My wife and I keep having the same "structure" of a fight, and had another big one yesterday. I really don't know what to do, and feel trapped. Perhaps I'll be embarrassed writing this later and am in a fog of anger this morning.
And yes, before I continue, I know the examples of fights below...while extremely annoying and a pain my the ass, are minor in the grand scheme of things and what others have had to deal with in relationships.
Essentially, I feel like I'm pretty steady with my mood. I'm a normal, happy, dude... I work, I get things done (without complaining), I love spending time with the kids and family, etc. The only time I get in a sour mood is when, well, my wife gets in a mood and causes conflict out of nowhere. I've known she doesn't handle stress very well, can get overwhelmed, she's been like that. I understand, but it has significantly become worse after having kids.
So the recurring fight structure is basically like a script outline... she gets stressed or tired about something, eventually decides to blame others (usually me) with a false claim, I call her out on it, and she gets really upset says "oh so this is all my fault then?", lots of shouting for a few minutes, then we don't talk for a few hours or more. I get so pissed, it's an unnecessary fight, out of nowhere, and she can't handle being told the truth.
Two examples:
Example 1:
A week ago... she was doing something in the morning and kept muttering or complaining under her breath "guess I'll have do to their bedsheets today" or "wont have time for a shower today" or something.Anyway, the previous afternoon she had some laundry in the washer and had to leave for a few errands. Keep in mind, besides my clothes, she ALWAYS does the laundry (sheets, kids, her clothes) and specifically prefers to. I mean, always. Still, I told her I can throw it in the dryer if that helps while she's out so it's not sitting there wet, she said thanks.
Well fast forward to the next morning and after the muttering she made a comment like "You left the stuff in the dryer? Ugh, now I have to dry it again and hope it wasn't still wet" or something. So I replied that she knew very well I was just moving it from the washer. Somehow that snowballed into her ranting that she "has to do everything", which very much offends me because (if you can take my word for me) ALL I do is help with the kids, work a full time job, clean the house, and work on house projects... I don't play video games, I haven't played golf in years, and if I want to watch a show I usually need to stay up late to watch it from like 10-11pm. Ok back to the fight, I told her we both do a lot, and parenting isn't easy, to which she said something along the lines of "oh I guess everything is my fault" to which I said, not at all...the only thing that's her fault at the moment is the false claim about the dryer which she knew wasn't true. "You always turn things and make them my fault!" which again... this bothers me because it is clear I'm not saying that. Anyway, some other yelling, etc....
Example 2:
Yesterday my daughter (5 years old) has tee-ball practice at 5pm. Earlier in the day, everything is normal between my wife and me. She asks what we should do for dinner since 5pm baseball makes dinner timing tough, and we both agree I'll just grab Jimmy Johns to eat before or after the practice. I asked if she's going to come to the practice (normally I just take the daughter) and she said yes and she'll bring the other 2 kids. She said we'll take 2 cars in case she needs to leave with the baby early, all is good.Then around 3pm, the kids are having a fit, and my wife said "I'm not taking the other 2 to the practice, it'll be too much to juggle and they are in a mood." So again, all is fine.
I leave to pick up Jimmy Johns since that is for dinner regardless and come back, and we are eating it on the porch and my wife said she actually will go to the practice with the kids tonight since they had settled down. I said that sounds good.
All is normal, right?
So we are all getting ready to go and she starts getting stressed and running around trying to get stuff for the other 2 kids to leave, I'm getting our daughter ready, and my wife starts making comments "this is why we shouldn't have all gone, I don't know where anything is, ugh... " stuff like that. Then she goes "I don't know why you got Jimmy Johns, you knew we weren't going to all go" and I said "Yes but you were going to have those sandwiches either way for dinner". Then I was starting to load up the first car, and she said she wants to just take one car, which I didn't care so that was fine. And she continued to make comments and complaints as she's getting ready, and I told her she didn't have to go if this was too tough and she makes some remark about "Oh this is my fault now?" and I was like, "No it's just at 3pm you said you weren't going to go, and at 4pm you said you were going" and she made another complaint or insulting comment about something I can't remember, and I remarked "you are complaining about your own choice!" to which she replies "FUCK YOU!" (she's never said that to me before, nor me to her). I was shocked. Then said "Just take all 3 kids" and I said, that is fine I will then. She then says "but don't take MY van" and I was like, are you in 3rd grade? It is our van. In the end, we all went to the practice, and we didn't talk to each other there, or last night, nor this morning. I am really upset but it'll only be another fight if I try to explain why I'm upset right now. Things will calm down later today I'd imagine.
It's just weird, she gets stressed out, starts to complain (which to me, only makes it worse...but to each their own), then spirals into a completely unnecessary argument usually covered by a false claim, maybe she is trying to vent but her way is to blame others (usually me)?
I'm really upset with how things went, and specifically where she went with her rage. We haven't talked since, nor do I want to talk. I know it's not healthy, but in a perfect world we'd go see a marriage counselor to talk things through and, arrogantly I admit, have someone else talk to her about how to handle stress.
The other option, which is likely what will happen, is I'll just need to observe when one of these completely unnecessary arguments is about to happen and NOT take the bait when she makes a false claim or blames me for something. It's better for our relationship, I think to just take the bullet for 20 minutes and let it pass, than to counter her comments and let that spiral into a real fight that I feel damages the relationship from silence/anger that results.
Thanks for letting me vent.
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Want to be right or you want to be happy?
This advice is free, so we know what it's worth... Your wife is wound tighter than a $2 watch. It's not you. It's stress.
Some folks do not handle stress well. Could even be some post-partum hormone rearranging, even at this date. Need to find what the problem is and address it.
The bigger problem is how to make her understand there is a problem, without sending her into denial or into orbit. And then, what do we do about it? May need to sit down and do some counseling, either with a professional or with trained clergy.
Shame you don't have more close family around. Grandparents and siblings are great for date nights or just giving y'all some downtime at home without the kids.
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That does remind me of marriage advice... "Even if you're right, you don't have to prove it each time". I think you're right about handling the stress, and maybe even some untold jealousy that I "get a break" (not really) when I go to work. A lot of it is self-inflicted too... she'll complain about laundry piling up to fold while sitting next to it scrolling instagram for 30 minutes. I don't mean to disparage here, but just trying to paint the picture.
Her parents do live nearby, and do help out at times... we are lucky in that regard.
I guess I'm just sad, too. My wife is a fantastic mother to our kids, and very trustworthy. And for one reason or another, perhaps her own family dynamic growing up, she's never been able to have a conflict discussion (aka pre-fight) without her retreating to either 3rd grade argument logic or just shutting down and not wanting to talk about it.
It's also awkward to talk about this with my friends, and my family has never been one to talk about internal relationship struggles, so TNCR is my outlet.
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I know I'm going to get slaughtered for this eventually, but here goes.
All this sounds very familiar. I think it has to do with the undeniable pressures of raising three kids, One can be stressful enough.
I don't think she's mad at you, but at herself. She thinks she should be able to handle all this effortlessly and perfectly. That was the movie she made in her own head. So when messy life doesn't live up to her expectation of herself she lashes out. You are the only one there, so naturally it's you.
There is still an image of man as the fixer of all things (unless she's venting, then you are not supposed to fix things..just listen, a damnably hard thing to learn to do). So we have to just fix them, and not point out the inconsistencies.
Don't get me wrong - it's awfully hard to learn to walk that tightrope, but it's worth it. You NEVER EVER point out that she is not being logical - that way lies mortal danger. If you don't know what to do, ask her what she would like you to do to help. If you do know what to do, just do so. But do not critique her approach. Ever.
We are men, and as such, relatively simple creatures. See the ball, hit the ball. Women think and feel differently. They have a set of expectations for themselves that you just wouldn't believe. For any given situation there is a myriad of thoughts and emotions pinballing around up there, often conflicting. You can't change that. But if you don't try to fight it, eventually that thought process will come around to thinking she's not being a very good wife to you.
Be her rock.
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@89th , look at https://www.gottman.com/ … I usually point couples to the Gottmans’ work when they are about to get married or when they get into recurring relationship troubles:
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Read “The Four Hourseman” article first to do some quick diagnostics.
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Then maybe read the “Three Ways to Reconnect” article for actionable ideas to fix things.
There is a book too if you want to get deeper into the Gottman’s research and methods, the title goes something like “The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work” — I usually give this book to young couples about to get married.
Based on everything I have read/researched on “couple’s relationship/therapy”, I hold the Gottmans’ work above the rest. Give it a shot and I hope it will help you and the Mrs.
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Jolly said it well, good to have other family around, to barrier, comment, help out, share time.
I've only been married 30 years, but 'Happy wife, happy life' says a lot.
You'll be in the right, but bite your lip and take it, let time work its way, unless you foresee consequences (we are currently discussing the way a large area (over 8mx4m) of wooden floor is to be laid; it will eventually be my way).
Does it matter that she asks you to do X when clearly X involves her side of the family, but she won't do it herself? And don't count how much you do, but always do more than your share, and then you should sleep soundly.
Go for a brief walk, the rhythm of walking outside usually puts things in perspective.
And discuss money things in advance.
Beyond that I don't know you well enough for specifics.Why do women never take the bins out, never check the car tyres, water?
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The other option, which is likely what will happen, is I'll just need to observe when one of these completely unnecessary arguments is about to happen and NOT take the bait when she makes a false claim or blames me for something. It's better for our relationship, I think to just take the bullet for 20 minutes and let it pass, than to counter her comments and let that spiral into a real fight that I feel damages the relationship from silence/anger that results.
Meditation. Let the emotions happen, but cut them off at the source.
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Not a flex, just laying out my experience:
My wife and I have been through some heavy, heavy fucking fights. We had to sort out some pretty fucked up shit from the get-go, and before she and I were adequately prepared to do so properly. It was rough, still is, but we're in a very good spot now and we know how exactly to fight with each other. We’re very good at it.
Read Jolly's posts again, he's right.
I believe Mik is correct in his analysis, but I'll try to expand more on the tactical:You don't have a problem here. You both do. And these fights are not unnecessary, they're essential. They indicate a misalignment that neither she nor you have fixed.
Your framing of these fights are concerning to me. If you’re seeing things through the lens of “good” rationality vs “silly” emotions, that’s a rookie male move and it’s untrue.
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth. Where they get a bad rep is that they’re so primal, and the world is so complicated, that we almost never interpret them correctly. They’re very important signposts we suck at interpreting. If you don’t respect that, you’re never going to fix problems like this because they aren’t fixed with logic alone.
To fix fight problems, you both need to drop your stupid egos and be more trusting of the other person than you are defensive or scared. That’s step one.
Oh and guess what: it's got to start with you. You have to make the first move, always. You need to work with her to map out the emotional landscape here: hers, and yours. That’s very difficult and requires a lot of failed attempts, consistency and patience, but I guarantee you it will be enlightening when it starts to happen. Only after you do that can you work with each other on understanding what everyone’s emotions mean, and the problems they’re really pointing to. When you do that, setting up a gameplan to fix things is easy as.
The next time your wife gets that way, get her to tell you more. Literally say, “okay, and what else?” (God help you if you say it sarcastically or start to defend yourself. This isn’t about that.) If she gets defensive, she’s either scared about confiding thoughts she feels she shouldn’t have, or doesn’t trust you or both. Gotta get past that shit. Do everything you can to prove you’re there to help, and keep at it until she feels comfortable opening up. You need to convince her that doing so will be judgment-free, and that you’re there to listen. No you're not doing that to make her feel heard and to say "you understand," that's stupid meme shit. It’s to map the full landscape, find out what isn’t being said, and what everyone’s feelings really mean.
Emotional intelligence is a skill. You get to a place where you can do this with each other on the regular, fights still happen but they’re no big deal and they’re a shitload easier to conclude.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Education is extremely important.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Emotions have a logic of their own, and this logic can vary person to person, but they're more or less consistent. I had a friend in high school who got funny when he got depressed. Most didn't know that because it's a bit of an unconventional emotional reaction, but he was pretty damn consistent with it, and knowing that meant I understood him better.
Please love yourself.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Emotions have a logic of their own, and this logic can vary person to person, but they're more or less consistent. I had a friend in high school who got funny when he got depressed. Most didn't know that because it's a bit of an unconventional emotional reaction, but he was pretty damn consistent with it, and knowing that meant I understood him better.
Sounds logical.
Education is extremely important.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Emotions have a logic of their own, and this logic can vary person to person, but they're more or less consistent. I had a friend in high school who got funny when he got depressed. Most didn't know that because it's a bit of an unconventional emotional reaction, but he was pretty damn consistent with it, and knowing that meant I understood him better.
Sounds logical.
It is, but I've found that people (e.g., past me) who only try to "math" their way through human interactions, and value rationality over silly emotions really suck at understanding themselves and others.
EDIT
Seems so self-evident that I didn't think to say it, but the same goes for those who only want to talk about "feels." Gotta go all in on both.Please love yourself.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Emotions have a logic of their own, and this logic can vary person to person, but they're more or less consistent. I had a friend in high school who got funny when he got depressed. Most didn't know that because it's a bit of an unconventional emotional reaction, but he was pretty damn consistent with it, and knowing that meant I understood him better.
Sounds logical.
It is, but I've found that people (e.g., past me) who only try to "math" their way through human interactions, and value rationality over silly emotions really suck at understanding themselves and others.
They call them emotions because they motivate. If a person is doing something, there's an emotion behind it. That's probably something important to keep in mind.
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Yeah, I'd say that's a good mental model to have.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Not a flex, just laying out my experience:
My wife and I have been through some heavy, heavy fucking fights. We had to sort out some pretty fucked up shit from the get-go, and before she and I were adequately prepared to do so properly. It was rough, still is, but we're in a very good spot now and we know how exactly to fight with each other. We’re very good at it.
Read Jolly's posts again, he's right.
I believe Mik is correct in his analysis, but I'll try to expand more on the tactical:You don't have a problem here. You both do. And these fights are not unnecessary, they're essential. They indicate a misalignment that neither she nor you have fixed.
Your framing of these fights are concerning to me. If you’re seeing things through the lens of “good” rationality vs “silly” emotions, that’s a rookie male move and it’s untrue.
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth. Where they get a bad rep is that they’re so primal, and the world is so complicated, that we almost never interpret them correctly. They’re very important signposts we suck at interpreting. If you don’t respect that, you’re never going to fix problems like this because they aren’t fixed with logic alone.
To fix fight problems, you both need to drop your stupid egos and be more trusting of the other person than you are defensive or scared. That’s step one.
Oh and guess what: it's got to start with you. You have to make the first move, always. You need to work with her to map out the emotional landscape here: hers, and yours. That’s very difficult and requires a lot of failed attempts, consistency and patience, but I guarantee you it will be enlightening when it starts to happen. Only after you do that can you work with each other on understanding what everyone’s emotions mean, and the problems they’re really pointing to. When you do that, setting up a gameplan to fix things is easy as.
The next time your wife gets that way, get her to tell you more. Literally say, “okay, and what else?” (God help you if you say it sarcastically or start to defend yourself. This isn’t about that.) If she gets defensive, she’s either scared about confiding thoughts she feels she shouldn’t have, or doesn’t trust you or both. Gotta get past that shit. Do everything you can to prove you’re there to help, and keep at it until she feels comfortable opening up. You need to convince her that doing so will be judgment-free, and that you’re there to listen. No you're not doing that to make her feel heard and to say "you understand," that's stupid meme shit. It’s to map the full landscape, find out what isn’t being said, and what everyone’s feelings really mean.
Emotional intelligence is a skill. You get to a place where you can do this with each other on the regular, fights still happen but they’re no big deal and they’re a shitload easier to conclude.
QFT
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I know I'm going to get slaughtered for this eventually, but here goes.
All this sounds very familiar. I think it has to do with the undeniable pressures of raising three kids, One can be stressful enough.
I don't think she's mad at you, but at herself. She thinks she should be able to handle all this effortlessly and perfectly. That was the movie she made in her own head. So when messy life doesn't live up to her expectation of herself she lashes out. You are the only one there, so naturally it's you.
There is still an image of man as the fixer of all things (unless she's venting, then you are not supposed to fix things..just listen, a damnably hard thing to learn to do). So we have to just fix them, and not point out the inconsistencies.
Don't get me wrong - it's awfully hard to learn to walk that tightrope, but it's worth it. You NEVER EVER point out that she is not being logical - that way lies mortal danger. If you don't know what to do, ask her what she would like you to do to help. If you do know what to do, just do so. But do not critique her approach. Ever.
We are men, and as such, relatively simple creatures. See the ball, hit the ball. Women think and feel differently. They have a set of expectations for themselves that you just wouldn't believe. For any given situation there is a myriad of thoughts and emotions pinballing around up there, often conflicting. You can't change that. But if you don't try to fight it, eventually that thought process will come around to thinking she's not being a very good wife to you.
Be her rock.
You know, I was wondering if anyone else would pick up on that. I work from home, and am often called up to help with this or that (watch a kid, help with lunch, etc). She hasn't said it directly, but while she appreciates the help I'd imagine she's also resenting that she can benefit so much with someone else helping out during the day.
Otherwise yes, a very tough tightrope to walk. I have no problem with her or anyone getting stressed out, but when I begin to get incorrectly blamed or insulted for things, it's very tough to bite my tongue. This isn't a sitcom where I'm the dumb dad in the room and the audience laughs. I don't insult her, ever. Or blame her, even when it IS her fault. So I guess it's tough when she does the opposite when stressed out.
And yes, we are simple creatures. See problem, fix problem.
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