Advice
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The other option, which is likely what will happen, is I'll just need to observe when one of these completely unnecessary arguments is about to happen and NOT take the bait when she makes a false claim or blames me for something. It's better for our relationship, I think to just take the bullet for 20 minutes and let it pass, than to counter her comments and let that spiral into a real fight that I feel damages the relationship from silence/anger that results.
Meditation. Let the emotions happen, but cut them off at the source.
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Not a flex, just laying out my experience:
My wife and I have been through some heavy, heavy fucking fights. We had to sort out some pretty fucked up shit from the get-go, and before she and I were adequately prepared to do so properly. It was rough, still is, but we're in a very good spot now and we know how exactly to fight with each other. We’re very good at it.
Read Jolly's posts again, he's right.
I believe Mik is correct in his analysis, but I'll try to expand more on the tactical:You don't have a problem here. You both do. And these fights are not unnecessary, they're essential. They indicate a misalignment that neither she nor you have fixed.
Your framing of these fights are concerning to me. If you’re seeing things through the lens of “good” rationality vs “silly” emotions, that’s a rookie male move and it’s untrue.
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth. Where they get a bad rep is that they’re so primal, and the world is so complicated, that we almost never interpret them correctly. They’re very important signposts we suck at interpreting. If you don’t respect that, you’re never going to fix problems like this because they aren’t fixed with logic alone.
To fix fight problems, you both need to drop your stupid egos and be more trusting of the other person than you are defensive or scared. That’s step one.
Oh and guess what: it's got to start with you. You have to make the first move, always. You need to work with her to map out the emotional landscape here: hers, and yours. That’s very difficult and requires a lot of failed attempts, consistency and patience, but I guarantee you it will be enlightening when it starts to happen. Only after you do that can you work with each other on understanding what everyone’s emotions mean, and the problems they’re really pointing to. When you do that, setting up a gameplan to fix things is easy as.
The next time your wife gets that way, get her to tell you more. Literally say, “okay, and what else?” (God help you if you say it sarcastically or start to defend yourself. This isn’t about that.) If she gets defensive, she’s either scared about confiding thoughts she feels she shouldn’t have, or doesn’t trust you or both. Gotta get past that shit. Do everything you can to prove you’re there to help, and keep at it until she feels comfortable opening up. You need to convince her that doing so will be judgment-free, and that you’re there to listen. No you're not doing that to make her feel heard and to say "you understand," that's stupid meme shit. It’s to map the full landscape, find out what isn’t being said, and what everyone’s feelings really mean.
Emotional intelligence is a skill. You get to a place where you can do this with each other on the regular, fights still happen but they’re no big deal and they’re a shitload easier to conclude.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Education is extremely important.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Emotions have a logic of their own, and this logic can vary person to person, but they're more or less consistent. I had a friend in high school who got funny when he got depressed. Most didn't know that because it's a bit of an unconventional emotional reaction, but he was pretty damn consistent with it, and knowing that meant I understood him better.
Please love yourself.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Emotions have a logic of their own, and this logic can vary person to person, but they're more or less consistent. I had a friend in high school who got funny when he got depressed. Most didn't know that because it's a bit of an unconventional emotional reaction, but he was pretty damn consistent with it, and knowing that meant I understood him better.
Sounds logical.
Education is extremely important.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Emotions have a logic of their own, and this logic can vary person to person, but they're more or less consistent. I had a friend in high school who got funny when he got depressed. Most didn't know that because it's a bit of an unconventional emotional reaction, but he was pretty damn consistent with it, and knowing that meant I understood him better.
Sounds logical.
It is, but I've found that people (e.g., past me) who only try to "math" their way through human interactions, and value rationality over silly emotions really suck at understanding themselves and others.
EDIT
Seems so self-evident that I didn't think to say it, but the same goes for those who only want to talk about "feels." Gotta go all in on both.Please love yourself.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Emotions have a logic of their own, and this logic can vary person to person, but they're more or less consistent. I had a friend in high school who got funny when he got depressed. Most didn't know that because it's a bit of an unconventional emotional reaction, but he was pretty damn consistent with it, and knowing that meant I understood him better.
Sounds logical.
It is, but I've found that people (e.g., past me) who only try to "math" their way through human interactions, and value rationality over silly emotions really suck at understanding themselves and others.
They call them emotions because they motivate. If a person is doing something, there's an emotion behind it. That's probably something important to keep in mind.
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Yeah, I'd say that's a good mental model to have.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Not a flex, just laying out my experience:
My wife and I have been through some heavy, heavy fucking fights. We had to sort out some pretty fucked up shit from the get-go, and before she and I were adequately prepared to do so properly. It was rough, still is, but we're in a very good spot now and we know how exactly to fight with each other. We’re very good at it.
Read Jolly's posts again, he's right.
I believe Mik is correct in his analysis, but I'll try to expand more on the tactical:You don't have a problem here. You both do. And these fights are not unnecessary, they're essential. They indicate a misalignment that neither she nor you have fixed.
Your framing of these fights are concerning to me. If you’re seeing things through the lens of “good” rationality vs “silly” emotions, that’s a rookie male move and it’s untrue.
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth. Where they get a bad rep is that they’re so primal, and the world is so complicated, that we almost never interpret them correctly. They’re very important signposts we suck at interpreting. If you don’t respect that, you’re never going to fix problems like this because they aren’t fixed with logic alone.
To fix fight problems, you both need to drop your stupid egos and be more trusting of the other person than you are defensive or scared. That’s step one.
Oh and guess what: it's got to start with you. You have to make the first move, always. You need to work with her to map out the emotional landscape here: hers, and yours. That’s very difficult and requires a lot of failed attempts, consistency and patience, but I guarantee you it will be enlightening when it starts to happen. Only after you do that can you work with each other on understanding what everyone’s emotions mean, and the problems they’re really pointing to. When you do that, setting up a gameplan to fix things is easy as.
The next time your wife gets that way, get her to tell you more. Literally say, “okay, and what else?” (God help you if you say it sarcastically or start to defend yourself. This isn’t about that.) If she gets defensive, she’s either scared about confiding thoughts she feels she shouldn’t have, or doesn’t trust you or both. Gotta get past that shit. Do everything you can to prove you’re there to help, and keep at it until she feels comfortable opening up. You need to convince her that doing so will be judgment-free, and that you’re there to listen. No you're not doing that to make her feel heard and to say "you understand," that's stupid meme shit. It’s to map the full landscape, find out what isn’t being said, and what everyone’s feelings really mean.
Emotional intelligence is a skill. You get to a place where you can do this with each other on the regular, fights still happen but they’re no big deal and they’re a shitload easier to conclude.
QFT
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I know I'm going to get slaughtered for this eventually, but here goes.
All this sounds very familiar. I think it has to do with the undeniable pressures of raising three kids, One can be stressful enough.
I don't think she's mad at you, but at herself. She thinks she should be able to handle all this effortlessly and perfectly. That was the movie she made in her own head. So when messy life doesn't live up to her expectation of herself she lashes out. You are the only one there, so naturally it's you.
There is still an image of man as the fixer of all things (unless she's venting, then you are not supposed to fix things..just listen, a damnably hard thing to learn to do). So we have to just fix them, and not point out the inconsistencies.
Don't get me wrong - it's awfully hard to learn to walk that tightrope, but it's worth it. You NEVER EVER point out that she is not being logical - that way lies mortal danger. If you don't know what to do, ask her what she would like you to do to help. If you do know what to do, just do so. But do not critique her approach. Ever.
We are men, and as such, relatively simple creatures. See the ball, hit the ball. Women think and feel differently. They have a set of expectations for themselves that you just wouldn't believe. For any given situation there is a myriad of thoughts and emotions pinballing around up there, often conflicting. You can't change that. But if you don't try to fight it, eventually that thought process will come around to thinking she's not being a very good wife to you.
Be her rock.
You know, I was wondering if anyone else would pick up on that. I work from home, and am often called up to help with this or that (watch a kid, help with lunch, etc). She hasn't said it directly, but while she appreciates the help I'd imagine she's also resenting that she can benefit so much with someone else helping out during the day.
Otherwise yes, a very tough tightrope to walk. I have no problem with her or anyone getting stressed out, but when I begin to get incorrectly blamed or insulted for things, it's very tough to bite my tongue. This isn't a sitcom where I'm the dumb dad in the room and the audience laughs. I don't insult her, ever. Or blame her, even when it IS her fault. So I guess it's tough when she does the opposite when stressed out.
And yes, we are simple creatures. See problem, fix problem.
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Otherwise yes, a very tough tightrope to walk. I have no problem with her or anyone getting stressed out, but when I begin to get incorrectly blamed or insulted for things, it's very tough to bite my tongue. This isn't a sitcom where I'm the dumb dad in the room and the audience laughs. I don't insult her, ever. Or blame her, even when it IS her fault. So I guess it's tough when she does the opposite when stressed out.
And yes, we are simple creatures. See problem, fix problem.
That's the thing, though. Stress makes you stupid. It makes civility and reasoning a thousand times harder.
I personally think it's folly to try to bring an already stressful situation back on an even keel by looking past emotions to only focus on problem-solving.
It's the underlying emotion that needs to be addressed, mapped out, and understood.
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Yep. Once you get to stressed out, there are a million things going through her mind - "I'm not good enough". "You're not good enough". "But I HAVE to be good enough!". "My mom was good enough" and any permutation of these themes you can think of. Things that would never occur to you to ponder. You have to help get her back to, "well, this is OK.".
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
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Also, can we just address for a minute how incredibly fucked up everything is right now? WW3 and nuclear holocausts are not outside of possibility. We're on the tail end of a pandemic, fridge trucks and dead bodies found in townhomes. Technology and the economy are changing at a pace where nobody knows what the fuck is going on. Going through the day-to-day as if everything is stable is ridiculous.
Since we've far passed the point of things getting proper weird out there, let's remember to give each other a break, eh?
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I appreciate the reply and the perspectives. The rational vs emotional aspect... I get it, but it's hard for me to apply it to the scenario such as yesterday. We were all going to the baseball practice, then my wife said she wanted to stay home. Ok cool. Then she said she'll go. Ok cool. Wait, it's time to pack up and go? She specifically decided she wanted to go but now she is stressed about where things are (such as the baby carrier or sunscreen), and for her to make statements about "I have to do everything" or "Where is the carrier, you had it last!" or "Why did you get Jimmy Johns after all?", it is hard for me to chalk that up to emotions, although I'm sure it is. For me, it's poor communication. How do I talk to her about shifting those blame/insults to something like "Hey can you help me find the carrier?" and dropping the insults?
Irregardless... (ok just kidding, I know you hate that), I'll try hard to look at the emotions behind these fights. However I know her, it's tough for her to sit down and discuss our egos, our emotions, our trust... We trust each other, we know each other very well, and if I even want to talk about yesterday's fight, she'll just say she doesn't want to talk about it.
The next time your wife gets that way, get her to tell you more. Literally say, “okay, and what else?” (God help you if you say it sarcastically or start to defend yourself. This isn’t about that.) If she gets defensive, she’s either scared about confiding thoughts she feels she shouldn’t have, or doesn’t trust you or both. Gotta get past that shit.
We will see. A great example is we have about 10 thank-you cards to write. She's been wanting to write them for a few weeks. I have offered to just do them. Not in a mean way, but she's made it clear she wants to be there when we write them so that we do it together, she includes her gratitude, etc. Normally this would be fine, but I can guarantee at some point if the thank you cards come up as a topic, she'll make a comment about how I could've just taken charge and written them, even though I specifically am waiting since I know she wants to be involved. Another minor, but clear, example that we are struggling with communication.
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Yep. Once you get to stressed out, there are a million things going through her mind - "I'm not good enough". "You're not good enough". "But I HAVE to be good enough!". "My mom was good enough" and any permutation of these themes you can think of. Things that would never occur to you to ponder. You have to help get her back to, "well, this is OK.".
Indeed, and perhaps I need to force myself to remember once she's at a certain stressed level, and particularly when it comes with blames/insults towards me, NOW is not the time to force the plane in for a landing. Just let the turbulence ride out without fighting it.
Yet even now, I'm not sure how to interact when I see her later. My instinct is to remain upset (which I am) with how she handled things and what she said and for her to realize that. But I'd imagine in her head she's been thinking "I can't believe he said I was complaining about my own choice" or something along those lines.
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I appreciate the reply and the perspectives. The rational vs emotional aspect... I get it, but it's hard for me to apply it to the scenario such as yesterday. We were all going to the baseball practice, then my wife said she wanted to stay home. Ok cool. Then she said she'll go. Ok cool. Wait, it's time to pack up and go? She specifically decided she wanted to go but now she is stressed about where things are (such as the baby carrier or sunscreen), and for her to make statements about "I have to do everything" or "Where is the carrier, you had it last!" or "Why did you get Jimmy Johns after all?", it is hard for me to chalk that up to emotions, although I'm sure it is. For me, it's poor communication. How do I talk to her about shifting those blame/insults to something like "Hey can you help me find the carrier?" and dropping the insults?
All that's totally fine. Just call it out. "Hey, looks like the carrier's stressing you out here. Is it the carrier or other stuff on your mind?"
She might balk, get snarky at that, ignore you, who knows. All defense mechanisms. Gotta get past it. Maybe with something like, "Okay, but look, you're stressed and that's no good. But it can be fixed, we can do something about it. We just have to talk about it first. You want to talk about it now? Later, when we have more time?"
Don't take the snide talk as an insult, or poor communication. Treat it as information. It's telling you something.
Keep needling, nicely and openly. It might be weird at first because it's not natural and she'll know that. Might even get suspicious. Gotta keep trying, both when you're in that situation and when you have a free moment.
I hope you can appreciate the fact that that disagreement was so not about the carrier.
Please love yourself.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Don't take the snide talk as an insult, or poor communication. Treat it as information. It's telling you something.
Keep needling, nicely and openly. It might be weird at first because it's not natural and she'll know that. Might even get suspicious. Gotta keep trying, both when you're in that situation and when you have a free moment.
Good stuff man. Thanks.
