Advice
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I know I'm going to get slaughtered for this eventually, but here goes.
All this sounds very familiar. I think it has to do with the undeniable pressures of raising three kids, One can be stressful enough.
I don't think she's mad at you, but at herself. She thinks she should be able to handle all this effortlessly and perfectly. That was the movie she made in her own head. So when messy life doesn't live up to her expectation of herself she lashes out. You are the only one there, so naturally it's you.
There is still an image of man as the fixer of all things (unless she's venting, then you are not supposed to fix things..just listen, a damnably hard thing to learn to do). So we have to just fix them, and not point out the inconsistencies.
Don't get me wrong - it's awfully hard to learn to walk that tightrope, but it's worth it. You NEVER EVER point out that she is not being logical - that way lies mortal danger. If you don't know what to do, ask her what she would like you to do to help. If you do know what to do, just do so. But do not critique her approach. Ever.
We are men, and as such, relatively simple creatures. See the ball, hit the ball. Women think and feel differently. They have a set of expectations for themselves that you just wouldn't believe. For any given situation there is a myriad of thoughts and emotions pinballing around up there, often conflicting. You can't change that. But if you don't try to fight it, eventually that thought process will come around to thinking she's not being a very good wife to you.
Be her rock.
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
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@89th , look at https://www.gottman.com/ … I usually point couples to the Gottmans’ work when they are about to get married or when they get into recurring relationship troubles:
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Read “The Four Hourseman” article first to do some quick diagnostics.
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Then maybe read the “Three Ways to Reconnect” article for actionable ideas to fix things.
There is a book too if you want to get deeper into the Gottman’s research and methods, the title goes something like “The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work” — I usually give this book to young couples about to get married.
Based on everything I have read/researched on “couple’s relationship/therapy”, I hold the Gottmans’ work above the rest. Give it a shot and I hope it will help you and the Mrs.
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Jolly said it well, good to have other family around, to barrier, comment, help out, share time.
I've only been married 30 years, but 'Happy wife, happy life' says a lot.
You'll be in the right, but bite your lip and take it, let time work its way, unless you foresee consequences (we are currently discussing the way a large area (over 8mx4m) of wooden floor is to be laid; it will eventually be my way).
Does it matter that she asks you to do X when clearly X involves her side of the family, but she won't do it herself? And don't count how much you do, but always do more than your share, and then you should sleep soundly.
Go for a brief walk, the rhythm of walking outside usually puts things in perspective.
And discuss money things in advance.
Beyond that I don't know you well enough for specifics.Why do women never take the bins out, never check the car tyres, water?
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The other option, which is likely what will happen, is I'll just need to observe when one of these completely unnecessary arguments is about to happen and NOT take the bait when she makes a false claim or blames me for something. It's better for our relationship, I think to just take the bullet for 20 minutes and let it pass, than to counter her comments and let that spiral into a real fight that I feel damages the relationship from silence/anger that results.
Meditation. Let the emotions happen, but cut them off at the source.
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Not a flex, just laying out my experience:
My wife and I have been through some heavy, heavy fucking fights. We had to sort out some pretty fucked up shit from the get-go, and before she and I were adequately prepared to do so properly. It was rough, still is, but we're in a very good spot now and we know how exactly to fight with each other. We’re very good at it.
Read Jolly's posts again, he's right.
I believe Mik is correct in his analysis, but I'll try to expand more on the tactical:You don't have a problem here. You both do. And these fights are not unnecessary, they're essential. They indicate a misalignment that neither she nor you have fixed.
Your framing of these fights are concerning to me. If you’re seeing things through the lens of “good” rationality vs “silly” emotions, that’s a rookie male move and it’s untrue.
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth. Where they get a bad rep is that they’re so primal, and the world is so complicated, that we almost never interpret them correctly. They’re very important signposts we suck at interpreting. If you don’t respect that, you’re never going to fix problems like this because they aren’t fixed with logic alone.
To fix fight problems, you both need to drop your stupid egos and be more trusting of the other person than you are defensive or scared. That’s step one.
Oh and guess what: it's got to start with you. You have to make the first move, always. You need to work with her to map out the emotional landscape here: hers, and yours. That’s very difficult and requires a lot of failed attempts, consistency and patience, but I guarantee you it will be enlightening when it starts to happen. Only after you do that can you work with each other on understanding what everyone’s emotions mean, and the problems they’re really pointing to. When you do that, setting up a gameplan to fix things is easy as.
The next time your wife gets that way, get her to tell you more. Literally say, “okay, and what else?” (God help you if you say it sarcastically or start to defend yourself. This isn’t about that.) If she gets defensive, she’s either scared about confiding thoughts she feels she shouldn’t have, or doesn’t trust you or both. Gotta get past that shit. Do everything you can to prove you’re there to help, and keep at it until she feels comfortable opening up. You need to convince her that doing so will be judgment-free, and that you’re there to listen. No you're not doing that to make her feel heard and to say "you understand," that's stupid meme shit. It’s to map the full landscape, find out what isn’t being said, and what everyone’s feelings really mean.
Emotional intelligence is a skill. You get to a place where you can do this with each other on the regular, fights still happen but they’re no big deal and they’re a shitload easier to conclude.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Education is extremely important.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Emotions have a logic of their own, and this logic can vary person to person, but they're more or less consistent. I had a friend in high school who got funny when he got depressed. Most didn't know that because it's a bit of an unconventional emotional reaction, but he was pretty damn consistent with it, and knowing that meant I understood him better.
Please love yourself.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Emotions have a logic of their own, and this logic can vary person to person, but they're more or less consistent. I had a friend in high school who got funny when he got depressed. Most didn't know that because it's a bit of an unconventional emotional reaction, but he was pretty damn consistent with it, and knowing that meant I understood him better.
Sounds logical.
Education is extremely important.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Emotions have a logic of their own, and this logic can vary person to person, but they're more or less consistent. I had a friend in high school who got funny when he got depressed. Most didn't know that because it's a bit of an unconventional emotional reaction, but he was pretty damn consistent with it, and knowing that meant I understood him better.
Sounds logical.
It is, but I've found that people (e.g., past me) who only try to "math" their way through human interactions, and value rationality over silly emotions really suck at understanding themselves and others.
EDIT
Seems so self-evident that I didn't think to say it, but the same goes for those who only want to talk about "feels." Gotta go all in on both.Please love yourself.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth.
That only begs the question of which truth the emotion is telling. Without logic, I don't suppose that truth is derivable.
Emotions have a logic of their own, and this logic can vary person to person, but they're more or less consistent. I had a friend in high school who got funny when he got depressed. Most didn't know that because it's a bit of an unconventional emotional reaction, but he was pretty damn consistent with it, and knowing that meant I understood him better.
Sounds logical.
It is, but I've found that people (e.g., past me) who only try to "math" their way through human interactions, and value rationality over silly emotions really suck at understanding themselves and others.
They call them emotions because they motivate. If a person is doing something, there's an emotion behind it. That's probably something important to keep in mind.
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Yeah, I'd say that's a good mental model to have.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Advice:
Not a flex, just laying out my experience:
My wife and I have been through some heavy, heavy fucking fights. We had to sort out some pretty fucked up shit from the get-go, and before she and I were adequately prepared to do so properly. It was rough, still is, but we're in a very good spot now and we know how exactly to fight with each other. We’re very good at it.
Read Jolly's posts again, he's right.
I believe Mik is correct in his analysis, but I'll try to expand more on the tactical:You don't have a problem here. You both do. And these fights are not unnecessary, they're essential. They indicate a misalignment that neither she nor you have fixed.
Your framing of these fights are concerning to me. If you’re seeing things through the lens of “good” rationality vs “silly” emotions, that’s a rookie male move and it’s untrue.
Rationality can have logical gaps. We can construct lines of thinking that are faulty. But emotions are always right. Always. Every single time, emotions tell the truth. Where they get a bad rep is that they’re so primal, and the world is so complicated, that we almost never interpret them correctly. They’re very important signposts we suck at interpreting. If you don’t respect that, you’re never going to fix problems like this because they aren’t fixed with logic alone.
To fix fight problems, you both need to drop your stupid egos and be more trusting of the other person than you are defensive or scared. That’s step one.
Oh and guess what: it's got to start with you. You have to make the first move, always. You need to work with her to map out the emotional landscape here: hers, and yours. That’s very difficult and requires a lot of failed attempts, consistency and patience, but I guarantee you it will be enlightening when it starts to happen. Only after you do that can you work with each other on understanding what everyone’s emotions mean, and the problems they’re really pointing to. When you do that, setting up a gameplan to fix things is easy as.
The next time your wife gets that way, get her to tell you more. Literally say, “okay, and what else?” (God help you if you say it sarcastically or start to defend yourself. This isn’t about that.) If she gets defensive, she’s either scared about confiding thoughts she feels she shouldn’t have, or doesn’t trust you or both. Gotta get past that shit. Do everything you can to prove you’re there to help, and keep at it until she feels comfortable opening up. You need to convince her that doing so will be judgment-free, and that you’re there to listen. No you're not doing that to make her feel heard and to say "you understand," that's stupid meme shit. It’s to map the full landscape, find out what isn’t being said, and what everyone’s feelings really mean.
Emotional intelligence is a skill. You get to a place where you can do this with each other on the regular, fights still happen but they’re no big deal and they’re a shitload easier to conclude.
QFT
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I know I'm going to get slaughtered for this eventually, but here goes.
All this sounds very familiar. I think it has to do with the undeniable pressures of raising three kids, One can be stressful enough.
I don't think she's mad at you, but at herself. She thinks she should be able to handle all this effortlessly and perfectly. That was the movie she made in her own head. So when messy life doesn't live up to her expectation of herself she lashes out. You are the only one there, so naturally it's you.
There is still an image of man as the fixer of all things (unless she's venting, then you are not supposed to fix things..just listen, a damnably hard thing to learn to do). So we have to just fix them, and not point out the inconsistencies.
Don't get me wrong - it's awfully hard to learn to walk that tightrope, but it's worth it. You NEVER EVER point out that she is not being logical - that way lies mortal danger. If you don't know what to do, ask her what she would like you to do to help. If you do know what to do, just do so. But do not critique her approach. Ever.
We are men, and as such, relatively simple creatures. See the ball, hit the ball. Women think and feel differently. They have a set of expectations for themselves that you just wouldn't believe. For any given situation there is a myriad of thoughts and emotions pinballing around up there, often conflicting. You can't change that. But if you don't try to fight it, eventually that thought process will come around to thinking she's not being a very good wife to you.
Be her rock.
You know, I was wondering if anyone else would pick up on that. I work from home, and am often called up to help with this or that (watch a kid, help with lunch, etc). She hasn't said it directly, but while she appreciates the help I'd imagine she's also resenting that she can benefit so much with someone else helping out during the day.
Otherwise yes, a very tough tightrope to walk. I have no problem with her or anyone getting stressed out, but when I begin to get incorrectly blamed or insulted for things, it's very tough to bite my tongue. This isn't a sitcom where I'm the dumb dad in the room and the audience laughs. I don't insult her, ever. Or blame her, even when it IS her fault. So I guess it's tough when she does the opposite when stressed out.
And yes, we are simple creatures. See problem, fix problem.
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Otherwise yes, a very tough tightrope to walk. I have no problem with her or anyone getting stressed out, but when I begin to get incorrectly blamed or insulted for things, it's very tough to bite my tongue. This isn't a sitcom where I'm the dumb dad in the room and the audience laughs. I don't insult her, ever. Or blame her, even when it IS her fault. So I guess it's tough when she does the opposite when stressed out.
And yes, we are simple creatures. See problem, fix problem.
That's the thing, though. Stress makes you stupid. It makes civility and reasoning a thousand times harder.
I personally think it's folly to try to bring an already stressful situation back on an even keel by looking past emotions to only focus on problem-solving.
It's the underlying emotion that needs to be addressed, mapped out, and understood.
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Yep. Once you get to stressed out, there are a million things going through her mind - "I'm not good enough". "You're not good enough". "But I HAVE to be good enough!". "My mom was good enough" and any permutation of these themes you can think of. Things that would never occur to you to ponder. You have to help get her back to, "well, this is OK.".
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
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Also, can we just address for a minute how incredibly fucked up everything is right now? WW3 and nuclear holocausts are not outside of possibility. We're on the tail end of a pandemic, fridge trucks and dead bodies found in townhomes. Technology and the economy are changing at a pace where nobody knows what the fuck is going on. Going through the day-to-day as if everything is stable is ridiculous.
Since we've far passed the point of things getting proper weird out there, let's remember to give each other a break, eh?
