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The New Coffee Room

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  3. An avoidable medical inequity

An avoidable medical inequity

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  • jon-nycJ Online
    jon-nycJ Online
    jon-nyc
    wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
    #1

    I don't mean 'outcomes differ, ergo racism', but something, real, avoidable and addressable at the medical device level.

    It has been discovered that pulse oximeters overestimate the amount of oxygen saturation for darker skinned people, thus making them appear less sick than they really are. This can, and surely has, delayed the onset of various interventions for Covid, for example. Surely it had some effect on racial disparities in outcomes, at least at the margin.

    https://www.statnews.com/2022/05/31/faulty-oxygen-readings-delayed-covid-treatments-darker-skin-patients/

    This could be addressed (at additional complexity) in a variety of ways, the smoothest and least awkward one would be devices that first read skin color and adjust the reading accordingly. (another way would be giving nurses a skin color guide which they use as a deflator, that would be awkward and imprecise but retrofittable to existing devices)

    But I suspect when pulse oximeters originally were approved by FDA, they likely had disproportionately white subjects (most trials do even now) and they approved it based on aggregate data. So the readings have a slights key away from where they would be if they only considered whites, but not by much.

    "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
    -Cormac McCarthy

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    • George KG Offline
      George KG Offline
      George K
      wrote on last edited by George K
      #2

      How pulse oximeters work.

      https://www.howequipmentworks.com/pulse_oximeter/

      ETA:

      This is a remarkable technology, when you think about it. When I started training, it was not available. By the time I finished training, it was available for the "sick patients." Within another 10 years, or so, it became the standard of care. Today, you can buy them at Walgreens.

      Pulse oximetry and capnography are two of the biggest reasons why liability insurance for anesthesiologists plummeted in the late 20th century.

      Sorry for the hijack...

      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • HoraceH Offline
        HoraceH Offline
        Horace
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Pulse oximeter? More like rabid white supremacistimeter.

        Education is extremely important.

        89th8 1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          I wonder if they'd find a sex disparity if they looked for it, since men have higher bone density.

          After all, the disparity in covid deaths between the sexes dwarfs that observed between ethnic groups. One could imagine this being a contributing factor, at least at the margin.

          "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
          -Cormac McCarthy

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          • HoraceH Horace

            Pulse oximeter? More like rabid white supremacistimeter.

            89th8 Offline
            89th8 Offline
            89th
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            @Horace said in An avoidable medical inequity:

            Pulse oximeter? More like rabid white supremacistimeter.

            I lol'd at the unnecessary but effective use of "rabid"

            1 Reply Last reply
            • jon-nycJ Online
              jon-nycJ Online
              jon-nyc
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              Actually we could McGuyver this at the EMR entry point with software, provided we had an image of the subject's hand taken with reasonably controlled light and exposure.

              Mik! Ya busy? :lol:

              "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
              -Cormac McCarthy

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              • MikM Offline
                MikM Offline
                Mik
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Nah. Photos would not do it unless they were accompanied by an ABG.

                “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                1 Reply Last reply
                • KlausK Offline
                  KlausK Offline
                  Klaus
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Isn't this merely an education problem?

                  Once medical personell is aware of the problem, they can always interpret oximeter readings as "raw data" that has to be adjusted by a skin-color-dependent factor, similar to how weight alone is a bad measure of obesity and you need to factor in other things like height.

                  Having smarter devices would of course be more elegant, but I don't know how expensive and practical that would be.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • KlausK Offline
                    KlausK Offline
                    Klaus
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    Hm, if I understand correctly, the skin color aspect cannot be expressed by a simple linear relationship between reading and actual oxygen level. It's more like "the reading is inaccurate more frequently". Hmm...

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • jon-nycJ Online
                      jon-nycJ Online
                      jon-nyc
                      wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                      #10

                      Sure, ABG is the gold standard. But the whole purpose of pulse-ox is to be non-invasive for quick checks.

                      The devices are calibrated with a sample set. You can do multiple calibrations with distinct sets based on some objective (tech based) shade. measurement. You won’t get perfection but you could get better readings across the, uh, spectrum.

                      It’s not exact for whites now. There’s a percentage of whites where the difference between ABG and pulse-ox is enough to have clinically significant implications. It’s just that the percentage of blacks in the same category is larger.

                      Interestingly, in the study the best performing population (i.e., ABG/Pulse-ox readings were closest) were self declared ‘mixed race’. This probably arises from a calibrating data set that contained enough dark skinned samples to skew the results toward a middle ground shade of some sort.

                      "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                      -Cormac McCarthy

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        Kind of funny to be typing all this is my hospital room and then the nurse come in to check my lilly-white vitals. Lol

                        "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                        -Cormac McCarthy

                        MikM 1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                          Kind of funny to be typing all this is my hospital room and then the nurse come in to check my lilly-white vitals. Lol

                          MikM Offline
                          MikM Offline
                          Mik
                          wrote on last edited by Mik
                          #12

                          @jon-nyc said in An avoidable medical inequity:

                          Kind of funny to be typing all this is my hospital room and then the nurse come in to check my lilly-white vitals. Lol

                          The question you have to ask yourself is do I feel privileged? Well, do ya, punk?

                          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • George KG Offline
                            George KG Offline
                            George K
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            It's important to understand that the relationship between PaO2 (ABG) and SpO2 is anything but linear.

                            One can have serious hypoxemia (low PaO2) while still having a relatively "normal" SpO2.

                            image.png

                            This is due to the unique structure of hemoglobin, with it's four components. As pH, Temperature, etc change, the affinity of oxygen to hemoglobin changes. As you can see from the picture, one can have a pretty significant hypoxemia (PaO2 of 70) with a relatively normal SpO2. As a point of fact, when blood returns to the heart to be re-oxygenated in the lungs, it's only given up about 25% of the oxygen it carried when it left.

                            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • JollyJ Offline
                              JollyJ Offline
                              Jolly
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              George and Bach can explain much better than I, but there are multiple different medical differences between races.

                              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

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