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The New Coffee Room

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  3. An avoidable medical inequity

An avoidable medical inequity

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  • HoraceH Offline
    HoraceH Offline
    Horace
    wrote on last edited by
    #3

    Pulse oximeter? More like rabid white supremacistimeter.

    Education is extremely important.

    89th8 1 Reply Last reply
    • jon-nycJ Offline
      jon-nycJ Offline
      jon-nyc
      wrote on last edited by
      #4

      I wonder if they'd find a sex disparity if they looked for it, since men have higher bone density.

      After all, the disparity in covid deaths between the sexes dwarfs that observed between ethnic groups. One could imagine this being a contributing factor, at least at the margin.

      "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
      -Cormac McCarthy

      1 Reply Last reply
      • HoraceH Horace

        Pulse oximeter? More like rabid white supremacistimeter.

        89th8 Offline
        89th8 Offline
        89th
        wrote on last edited by
        #5

        @Horace said in An avoidable medical inequity:

        Pulse oximeter? More like rabid white supremacistimeter.

        I lol'd at the unnecessary but effective use of "rabid"

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        • jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by
          #6

          Actually we could McGuyver this at the EMR entry point with software, provided we had an image of the subject's hand taken with reasonably controlled light and exposure.

          Mik! Ya busy? :lol:

          "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
          -Cormac McCarthy

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          • MikM Offline
            MikM Offline
            Mik
            wrote on last edited by
            #7

            Nah. Photos would not do it unless they were accompanied by an ABG.

            “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

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            • KlausK Online
              KlausK Online
              Klaus
              wrote on last edited by
              #8

              Isn't this merely an education problem?

              Once medical personell is aware of the problem, they can always interpret oximeter readings as "raw data" that has to be adjusted by a skin-color-dependent factor, similar to how weight alone is a bad measure of obesity and you need to factor in other things like height.

              Having smarter devices would of course be more elegant, but I don't know how expensive and practical that would be.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • KlausK Online
                KlausK Online
                Klaus
                wrote on last edited by
                #9

                Hm, if I understand correctly, the skin color aspect cannot be expressed by a simple linear relationship between reading and actual oxygen level. It's more like "the reading is inaccurate more frequently". Hmm...

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                • jon-nycJ Offline
                  jon-nycJ Offline
                  jon-nyc
                  wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                  #10

                  Sure, ABG is the gold standard. But the whole purpose of pulse-ox is to be non-invasive for quick checks.

                  The devices are calibrated with a sample set. You can do multiple calibrations with distinct sets based on some objective (tech based) shade. measurement. You won’t get perfection but you could get better readings across the, uh, spectrum.

                  It’s not exact for whites now. There’s a percentage of whites where the difference between ABG and pulse-ox is enough to have clinically significant implications. It’s just that the percentage of blacks in the same category is larger.

                  Interestingly, in the study the best performing population (i.e., ABG/Pulse-ox readings were closest) were self declared ‘mixed race’. This probably arises from a calibrating data set that contained enough dark skinned samples to skew the results toward a middle ground shade of some sort.

                  "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                  -Cormac McCarthy

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                  • jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #11

                    Kind of funny to be typing all this is my hospital room and then the nurse come in to check my lilly-white vitals. Lol

                    "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                    -Cormac McCarthy

                    MikM 1 Reply Last reply
                    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                      Kind of funny to be typing all this is my hospital room and then the nurse come in to check my lilly-white vitals. Lol

                      MikM Offline
                      MikM Offline
                      Mik
                      wrote on last edited by Mik
                      #12

                      @jon-nyc said in An avoidable medical inequity:

                      Kind of funny to be typing all this is my hospital room and then the nurse come in to check my lilly-white vitals. Lol

                      The question you have to ask yourself is do I feel privileged? Well, do ya, punk?

                      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • George KG Offline
                        George KG Offline
                        George K
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #13

                        It's important to understand that the relationship between PaO2 (ABG) and SpO2 is anything but linear.

                        One can have serious hypoxemia (low PaO2) while still having a relatively "normal" SpO2.

                        image.png

                        This is due to the unique structure of hemoglobin, with it's four components. As pH, Temperature, etc change, the affinity of oxygen to hemoglobin changes. As you can see from the picture, one can have a pretty significant hypoxemia (PaO2 of 70) with a relatively normal SpO2. As a point of fact, when blood returns to the heart to be re-oxygenated in the lungs, it's only given up about 25% of the oxygen it carried when it left.

                        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • JollyJ Offline
                          JollyJ Offline
                          Jolly
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #14

                          George and Bach can explain much better than I, but there are multiple different medical differences between races.

                          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

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