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The New Coffee Room

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  3. The Ukraine war thread

The Ukraine war thread

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  • G George K
    15 Mar 2022, 23:31

    @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

    @George-K

    I have never thought of any Arab nation as a friend.

    "Friends" of convenience.

    When you don't need their product, be it oil, deterrence, whatever, you should jettison them.

    R Offline
    R Offline
    Renauda
    wrote on 16 Mar 2022, 00:15 last edited by
    #32

    @George-K

    They’ll find out soon enough that global market for sand is limited to local supply if it even exists.

    Elbows up!

    J 1 Reply Last reply 17 Mar 2022, 14:24
    • C Offline
      C Offline
      Copper
      wrote on 16 Mar 2022, 01:41 last edited by
      #33

      After we took Kuwait away from the Iraqis and gave it back to Kuwait, Kuwait was pretty friendly.

      Actually Kuwait was pretty friendly before we removed Iraq.

      The Shah's Iran was friendly enough, not so much after he retired.

      Friendships run hot and cold, this is the way of the world.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • G George K
        15 Mar 2022, 21:52

        @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

        A different take on the situation. Would be curious as to what bach has to say:

        https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/much-of-the-world-is-ambivalent-about-the-ukraine-war-rightly-so/?fbclid=IwAR0kPtlh6Ic4yah4dW4ldIaizT-ODb-e50n-H1btf35pCDdr7AtYO2eKBLE

        In the Arab world, it is safe to say that the collective outrage in the West over the invasion of a weaker country by a stronger country is seen as conspicuously inconsistent. The US traveled 6,000 miles to invade Iraq over a non-existent threat, after all

        Iraq was perceived as a threat by most intelligence services of western countries at the time. It may have been wrong, but it was not at the time. Because "after all."

        It's interesting that the occupation of Kuwait is not mentioned.

        while Russia has invaded a neighboring country that is well-stocked with weapons, and was seeking to join what they perceive to be as a hostile military alliance. The irony is not lost on the Arab public.

        So perception of a threat is OK for the Russians, but not for the US?

        But, an interesting article about "perceptions" of "threats".

        K Offline
        K Offline
        Klaus
        wrote on 16 Mar 2022, 06:14 last edited by Klaus
        #34

        Iraq was perceived as a threat by most intelligence services of western countries at the time. It may have been wrong, but it was not at the time. Because "after all."

        That's not how I remember it. Many called BS on the WMD hypothesis right from the start. I never bought it.

        I for one think the actual reason was that the Bush administration thought they had to do something to fulfill desires of revenge about 9/11, and Iraq was convenient and geostrategically useful for that.

        My impression is that many Americans have no idea about how devastating that war was with respect to the general sentiment towards the US in many parts of the world.

        L 1 Reply Last reply 16 Mar 2022, 13:52
        • J Offline
          J Offline
          jon-nyc
          wrote on 16 Mar 2022, 10:57 last edited by
          #35

          Every day she posts summaries of Zelensky’s speeches.

          Only non-witches get due process.

          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
          1 Reply Last reply
          • G Offline
            G Offline
            George K
            wrote on 16 Mar 2022, 13:28 last edited by
            #36

            There's a site that tracks equipment losses by Russia and Ukraine. It only lists verified losses (photos, etc), and also breaks down whether the equipment was destroyed, damaged, or abandoned.

            https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

            As of today:

            Screen Shot 2022-03-16 at 8.28.29 AM.png

            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

            J 1 Reply Last reply 17 Mar 2022, 14:31
            • K Offline
              K Offline
              Klaus
              wrote on 16 Mar 2022, 13:37 last edited by
              #37

              Very hard to get that data even remotely correct.

              Presumably the availability of photos and videos is rather asymmetric for the two sides.

              And it's almost impossible to avoid duplicates or fakes.

              A G 2 Replies Last reply 16 Mar 2022, 13:42
              • K Klaus
                16 Mar 2022, 13:37

                Very hard to get that data even remotely correct.

                Presumably the availability of photos and videos is rather asymmetric for the two sides.

                And it's almost impossible to avoid duplicates or fakes.

                A Offline
                A Offline
                Aqua Letifer
                wrote on 16 Mar 2022, 13:42 last edited by
                #38

                @Klaus said in The Ukraine war thread:

                Very hard to get that data even remotely correct.

                Presumably the availability of photos and videos is rather asymmetric for the two sides.

                And it's almost impossible to avoid duplicates or fakes.

                Even so, I think it's obvious that

                1. Ukraine is getting pummeled
                2. They're holding up far better than anyone expected.

                Please love yourself.

                1 Reply Last reply
                • K Klaus
                  16 Mar 2022, 06:14

                  Iraq was perceived as a threat by most intelligence services of western countries at the time. It may have been wrong, but it was not at the time. Because "after all."

                  That's not how I remember it. Many called BS on the WMD hypothesis right from the start. I never bought it.

                  I for one think the actual reason was that the Bush administration thought they had to do something to fulfill desires of revenge about 9/11, and Iraq was convenient and geostrategically useful for that.

                  My impression is that many Americans have no idea about how devastating that war was with respect to the general sentiment towards the US in many parts of the world.

                  L Offline
                  L Offline
                  LuFins Dad
                  wrote on 16 Mar 2022, 13:52 last edited by
                  #39

                  @Klaus said in The Ukraine war thread:

                  Iraq was perceived as a threat by most intelligence services of western countries at the time. It may have been wrong, but it was not at the time. Because "after all."

                  That's not how I remember it. Many called BS on the WMD hypothesis right from the start. I never bought it.

                  I for one think the actual reason was that the Bush administration thought they had to do something to fulfill desires of revenge about 9/11, and Iraq was convenient and geostrategically useful for that.

                  My impression is that many Americans have no idea about how devastating that war was with respect to the general sentiment towards the US in many parts of the world.

                  WMD aside (and there are still many questions regarding the convoys to Syria), The Hussein regime was in serious violation of the ceasefire agreement, were supporting multiple terror cells and activities, were actively trying to assassinate world leaders and former Presidents, and were denying access to UN Inspectors and completely gaming the sanctions to enrich themselves while starving their populace. I personally find that invasion to be perfectly justified.

                  The Brad

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • K Klaus
                    16 Mar 2022, 13:37

                    Very hard to get that data even remotely correct.

                    Presumably the availability of photos and videos is rather asymmetric for the two sides.

                    And it's almost impossible to avoid duplicates or fakes.

                    G Offline
                    G Offline
                    George K
                    wrote on 16 Mar 2022, 14:05 last edited by
                    #40

                    @Klaus said in The Ukraine war thread:

                    Very hard to get that data even remotely correct.

                    The site says:

                    "This list only includes destroyed vehicles and equipment of which photo or videographic evidence is available. Therefore, the amount of equipment destroyed is significantly higher than recorded here. Small arms, munitions, civilian vehicles, trailers and derelict equipment (including aircraft) are not included in this list. All possible effort has gone into discerning the status of equipment between captured or abandoned. Many of the entries listed as 'abandoned' will likely end up captured or destroyed. Similarly, some of the captured equipment might be destroyed if it can't be recovered. ATGMs and MANPADS are included in the list but not included in the ultimate count. The Soviet flag is used when the equipment in question was produced prior to 1991.

                    (Click on the numbers to get a picture of each individual captured or destroyed vehicle)"

                    Presumably the availability of photos and videos is rather asymmetric for the two sides.

                    True. However, I doubt that the Russians are documenting their losses in this fashion. Perhaps I'm naive to believe that the Ukrainians are a bit more honest in that regard.

                    And it's almost impossible to avoid duplicates or fakes.

                    Possible as well, but they seem to be pretty scrupulous about that. Nothing is documented without a photo. However, for each item listed there is a unique photo.

                    image.png

                    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • J Offline
                      J Offline
                      jon-nyc
                      wrote on 16 Mar 2022, 14:07 last edited by
                      #41

                      I was against it from the very beginning but I also remember that as a key split I had with the left.

                      I went to an anti-war rally and everyone there thought the war was unjust.

                      I never thought it was unjust, I simply thought it was unwise.

                      Many more people have come to that view, including quite a few who supported it at the time.

                      Only non-witches get due process.

                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • R Offline
                        R Offline
                        Renauda
                        wrote on 17 Mar 2022, 01:51 last edited by
                        #42

                        Ukrainian Air Force:

                        https://kyivindependent.com/national/ukraines-old-air-defense-proves-unexpectedly-effective-in-combat/

                        Elbows up!

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • M Offline
                          M Offline
                          Mik
                          wrote on 17 Mar 2022, 01:55 last edited by
                          #43

                          Funny what happens when folks are defending their home.

                          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • G Offline
                            G Offline
                            George K
                            wrote on 17 Mar 2022, 11:01 last edited by
                            #44

                            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • M Offline
                              M Offline
                              Mik
                              wrote on 17 Mar 2022, 11:53 last edited by
                              #45

                              That can't be good.

                              “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • L Offline
                                L Offline
                                LuFins Dad
                                wrote on 17 Mar 2022, 11:59 last edited by
                                #46

                                Well, no sense in being budget conscious for that May vacation now...

                                The Brad

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • R Renauda
                                  16 Mar 2022, 00:15

                                  @George-K

                                  They’ll find out soon enough that global market for sand is limited to local supply if it even exists.

                                  J Offline
                                  J Offline
                                  Jolly
                                  wrote on 17 Mar 2022, 14:24 last edited by
                                  #47

                                  @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                  @George-K

                                  They’ll find out soon enough that global market for sand is limited to local supply if it even exists.

                                  Actually...

                                  https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/05/sand-shortage-the-world-is-running-out-of-a-crucial-commodity.html

                                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                  R 1 Reply Last reply 17 Mar 2022, 19:49
                                  • G George K
                                    16 Mar 2022, 13:28

                                    There's a site that tracks equipment losses by Russia and Ukraine. It only lists verified losses (photos, etc), and also breaks down whether the equipment was destroyed, damaged, or abandoned.

                                    https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

                                    As of today:

                                    Screen Shot 2022-03-16 at 8.28.29 AM.png

                                    J Offline
                                    J Offline
                                    Jolly
                                    wrote on 17 Mar 2022, 14:31 last edited by
                                    #48

                                    @George-K said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                    There's a site that tracks equipment losses by Russia and Ukraine. It only lists verified losses (photos, etc), and also breaks down whether the equipment was destroyed, damaged, or abandoned.

                                    https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

                                    As of today:

                                    Screen Shot 2022-03-16 at 8.28.29 AM.png

                                    You know what screams out from that list?

                                    Helicopters.

                                    For years, helicopters were touted as the answer to vertical envelopment and close combat air support. I think this war is going to make some people sit back and rethink some things.

                                    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • G Offline
                                      G Offline
                                      George K
                                      wrote on 17 Mar 2022, 15:16 last edited by
                                      #49

                                      Interesting comparison of losses from yesterday vs today.

                                      Screen Shot 2022-03-17 at 10.16.36 AM.png

                                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                      A 1 Reply Last reply 17 Mar 2022, 16:33
                                      • G George K
                                        17 Mar 2022, 15:16

                                        Interesting comparison of losses from yesterday vs today.

                                        Screen Shot 2022-03-17 at 10.16.36 AM.png

                                        A Offline
                                        A Offline
                                        Aqua Letifer
                                        wrote on 17 Mar 2022, 16:33 last edited by
                                        #50

                                        @George-K said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                        Interesting comparison of losses from yesterday vs today.

                                        Screen Shot 2022-03-17 at 10.16.36 AM.png

                                        Russians also have much more equipment to lose.

                                        Please love yourself.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • H Offline
                                          H Offline
                                          Horace
                                          wrote on 17 Mar 2022, 16:46 last edited by
                                          #51

                                          How did I not know that former top ranked heavyweight boxer Vitali Klitshko is the mayor of Kyiv? And Elon Musk is challenging homosexual Putin to Mano a Mano combat. Ridiculous.

                                          Education is extremely important.

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