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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. Puzzle time - Silo dog

Puzzle time - Silo dog

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  • jon-nycJ Online
    jon-nycJ Online
    jon-nyc
    wrote on last edited by
    #5

    This isn’t a ‘find the trick and do the answer in your head’ problem. It’s a pencil-to-paper problem.

    Only non-witches get due process.

    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
    1 Reply Last reply
    • bachophileB Offline
      bachophileB Offline
      bachophile
      wrote on last edited by
      #6

      I figure the dog wanting to mark its territory simply pees all over the place.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • KlausK Offline
        KlausK Offline
        Klaus
        wrote on last edited by
        #7

        Game plan would be:

        1. Find function that computes max height/distance from any point on silo, i.e., the shape of the "wrap around" part.

        2. Presuming the formula is complicated, ask computer algebra system to integrate the function to find its area.

        3. Multiply by two and add area of the semi-circle.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • AxtremusA Offline
          AxtremusA Offline
          Axtremus
          wrote on last edited by
          #8

          Yeah, getting the the “game plan” is easy, actually getting step 1 is the harder part.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • jon-nycJ Online
            jon-nycJ Online
            jon-nyc
            wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
            #9

            Actually integrating the function is straightforward.

            The trick, if you want to call it that, is just figuring out the function. Totally doable by both of you.

            Only non-witches get due process.

            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
            1 Reply Last reply
            • bachophileB Offline
              bachophileB Offline
              bachophile
              wrote on last edited by
              #10

              I glad he didn’t say the three of you

              1 Reply Last reply
              • jon-nycJ Online
                jon-nycJ Online
                jon-nyc
                wrote on last edited by
                #11

                lol.

                Only non-witches get due process.

                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                1 Reply Last reply
                • AxtremusA Offline
                  AxtremusA Offline
                  Axtremus
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #12

                  ||Cycloid is key.
                  Imagine the silo "rolls over" by 180º, the arc traced out by the point opposite the hook is that of a cycloid, and the area under the cycloid is given by the formula 3πr^2 where r is the silo's radius.
                  Solution is (area of cycloid traced out by the silo)-(area of silo)+(half the area of circle with radius that is the leash's length).
                  Area covered by the dog = 3π(10)^2 - π(10)^2 + (π(10π)^2)/2
                  ||

                  KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
                  • AxtremusA Axtremus

                    ||Cycloid is key.
                    Imagine the silo "rolls over" by 180º, the arc traced out by the point opposite the hook is that of a cycloid, and the area under the cycloid is given by the formula 3πr^2 where r is the silo's radius.
                    Solution is (area of cycloid traced out by the silo)-(area of silo)+(half the area of circle with radius that is the leash's length).
                    Area covered by the dog = 3π(10)^2 - π(10)^2 + (π(10π)^2)/2
                    ||

                    KlausK Offline
                    KlausK Offline
                    Klaus
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #13

                    @Axtremus said in Puzzle time - Silo dog:

                    Imagine the silo "rolls over" by 180º, the arc traced out by the point opposite the hook is that of a cycloid,

                    But how does that arc relate to where the dog can go? Your solution - which may well be correct - is missing an argument here.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • KlausK Offline
                      KlausK Offline
                      Klaus
                      wrote on last edited by Klaus
                      #14

                      Wouldn't the resulting shape be a (part of a) cardoid and not a cycloid?

                      alt text

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                        #15

                        Yes. This is the shape. Note the 10pi leash length is just perfectly half the circumference of the silo.

                        609F2B11-E3C8-4B7D-8EF5-10F86F0519CE.jpeg

                        Only non-witches get due process.

                        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • AxtremusA Offline
                          AxtremusA Offline
                          Axtremus
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #16

                          Right, cardioid rather than cycloid.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • jon-nycJ Online
                            jon-nycJ Online
                            jon-nyc
                            wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                            #17

                            Maybe you can google up a formula if you can’t figure out the integral.

                            Only non-witches get due process.

                            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • KlausK Offline
                              KlausK Offline
                              Klaus
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #18

                              I haven't looked at formulas yet but it looks like one needs only a part of the cardoid area since it overlaps with the semi circle.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • jon-nycJ Online
                                jon-nycJ Online
                                jon-nyc
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #19

                                Yep. It’s the quarter circle plus that bit of cartioid x 2

                                Only non-witches get due process.

                                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • KlausK Offline
                                  KlausK Offline
                                  Klaus
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #20

                                  The area formula is:

                                  1c7fca0a-26a5-4be8-935f-b300870327a7-image.png

                                  but the integral would not have to be taken to pi but to the angle at which the y value is maximal, would be the case at the angle 3/4 * sqrt(3).

                                  But this gets rather complicated hence I assume something's wrong here...

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • jon-nycJ Online
                                    jon-nycJ Online
                                    jon-nyc
                                    wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                                    #21

                                    That's ugly don't continue.

                                    Smallish hint:

                                    ||Look at the cardioid area in isolation and write an equation for the length of the leash as a function of the angle traversed through it.||

                                    Biggish hint:

                                    ||Imagine the dog is at the "northern" border between the half circle and the cardioid part as shown in this diagram:

                                    IMG_0565 2.jpg

                                    His leash is now a tangent on the circle formed by the silo.

                                    As he moves "west" the leash shortens but continues drawing a tangent against the circle. As a first step, express the length 𝓁 of the leash as a function of the angle θ.||

                                    Only non-witches get due process.

                                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • jon-nycJ Online
                                      jon-nycJ Online
                                      jon-nyc
                                      wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                                      #22

                                      buffer post because you can see through the spoiler inadvertently from certain views on certain devices.

                                      Only non-witches get due process.

                                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • jon-nycJ Online
                                        jon-nycJ Online
                                        jon-nyc
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #23

                                        Any reason I shouldn't post a solution?

                                        Only non-witches get due process.

                                        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • jon-nycJ Online
                                          jon-nycJ Online
                                          jon-nyc
                                          wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                                          #24

                                          Here it is, in a spoiler in case someone still wants to solve it.

                                          ||As previously noted, the total area comprises a half circle plus that little strange part which apparently is called a cardioid (a word I don't remember hearing before this thread.

                                          The half circle is easy, 1/2(pi * r^2), where the radius is 10pi, so 50pi^3.

                                          Now for the cardioid area. Note in the following diagram, when stretched taut the length of the remaining leash after it has already wrapped around a portion of the silo wall is the total length of the leash minus the circumference of the arc it has traversed. So if we call the angle t the length is 10pi - 10t, or 10(pi-t).

                                          IMG_0634.jpg

                                          Now for a little calculus. Increase t by a tiny amount - dt. The tangent advances correspondingly, and the area of the tiny sector of the circle you've covered is 50(pi-t)^2 dt. Integrate that from 0 to pi and you get 50/3 * pi^3.

                                          Double that to get 100/3 * pi^3 and add the half circle and the final answer is 250/3 * pi^3.||

                                          Only non-witches get due process.

                                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                          1 Reply Last reply
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