Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar
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" . . . a failure of nerve on the part of liberals to defend the values and institutions of liberal democracy, and of conservatives to keep their own ranks free of raw demagogues and bigots . . . a growing sense of disorder and violence and rioting as simply the background noise; and a sense that authorities do not have the strength or the stomach to restore order."
"Tribalism is intensifying in every nook and cranny of the culture. The establishment right and mainstream left tolerate their respective extremes because they hate each other so much."
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I downloaded the book The Second Civil War by Ronald Brownstein. Probably won't get to it for awhile yet, but here's the writeup from Amazon:
In The Second Civil War, respected political commentator Ronald Brownstein diagnoses the electoral, demographic, and institutional forces that have wreaked such change over the American political landscape, pulling politics into the margins and leaving precious little common ground for compromise. The Second Civil War is not a book for Democrats or Republicans but for all Americans who are disturbed by our current political dysfunction and hungry for ways to understand it—and move beyond it.
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And as for "Donald Trump is an extinction level event for liberal democracy" -
we are 4 years in and still waiting. (Frankly, my hesitancy to vote for him the first time around was because I thought he was a extinction level event for the US if not the world). #nuclearstrike
@Kincaid said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:
And as for "Donald Trump is an extinction level event for liberal democracy" -
we are 4 years in and still waiting.
The left is only too happy to attempt to oblige. They know their rank and file will blame everything on Trump anyway. They have carte blanche in their own echo chamber. Really, just ask them.
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@Kincaid said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:
And as for "Donald Trump is an extinction level event for liberal democracy" -
we are 4 years in and still waiting.
The left is only too happy to attempt to oblige. They know their rank and file will blame everything on Trump anyway. They have carte blanche in their own echo chamber. Really, just ask them.
@Horace said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:
The left is only too happy to attempt to oblige.
And the politicians supporting the left have been silent on the destruction, violence, looking until polls demonstrated that it's the wrong position because it might hurt their prospects.
<insert Forest Gump "And just like that...." meme here>
Talk about "awokening," LOL.
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You reap what you sow.
Since the 2000 election, the country has been headed towards the abyss. The Left is magnitudes worse than the right, although both have their share of nuts. It just seems the Leftist nuts are becoming more mainstream for their political persuasion.
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You reap what you sow.
Since the 2000 election, the country has been headed towards the abyss. The Left is magnitudes worse than the right, although both have their share of nuts. It just seems the Leftist nuts are becoming more mainstream for their political persuasion.
@Jolly said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:
The Left is magnitudes worse than the right, although both have their share of nuts.
Again, I ask: Point me to the mayhem, riots, destruction, personal attacks, and intimidation that the right has encouraged and performed in the last 4 months.
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It's understandable that having enthusiastically participated in the tribal response that is largely to blame for the mayhem, you would find the blame game tiresome, and prefer to engage in a more zoomed out academic discussion of the proceedings. But if you would like to expound on your thoughts re: the Weimar comparison, you are welcome to.
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I should have quoted a smaller segment. I was thinking we’d have the new-to-us conversation about the Weimar comparison, not the age old conversation about blame.
@jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:
I should have quoted a smaller segment. I was thinking we’d have the new-to-us conversation about the Weimar comparison, not the age old conversation about blame.
The problem is that Sullivan equates the positions of the new left with the extreme right, when that's a false equivalence.
As TuCa said, about 10 minutes ago, "When is the last time a bunch of Trump supporters looted a Target, attacked you at a restaurant, or torched a police station."
Once you can answer that question, we can talk about Weimar comparisons and the tribes. If you can't then it's a false equivalence at best, and a bald-faced lie at worst.
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Here's jon next door:
Politically, at least, I post on broadly the same two themes in both forums. One is something like 'Trumpism is a danger to the republic and must be stopped' and the other is something like 'The post-liberal left is a danger to the republic and must be stopped'. In each forum everyone seems to like one or the other topic, only a tiny handful seem genuinely sympathetic to both.
Since he's slipped into princess jon mode in this thread, that is probably the most we'll get from him regarding his opinion that yes, the left and right are equally bad right now.
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What I don’t understand is why you didn’t lose your need for my approval when you made your transition. Seems like you need to learn to manage your resentment if we’re ever going to find an equilibrium. Which I hope at some point we’re able to do.
Only non-witches get due process.
- Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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To the Weimar point, I don’t know that one needs to express a strong point of view on relative worth of the tribes in order to appreciate the comparison. Seems like you could separate the implications from the blame at least temporarily, as an intellectual exercise at least.
Only non-witches get due process.
- Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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Not when your starting position is the current administration as an 'extinction level event' for the republic. If Sullivan would like to forego playing the blame game perhaps others might be more amenable to entertaining the idea. But I won't hold my breath.
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What I don’t understand is why you didn’t lose your need for my approval when you made your transition. Seems like you need to learn to manage your resentment if we’re ever going to find an equilibrium. Which I hope at some point we’re able to do.
@jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:
What I don’t understand is why you didn’t lose your need for my approval when you made your transition. Seems like you need to learn to manage your resentment if we’re ever going to find an equilibrium. Which I hope at some point we’re able to do.
Magnanimous, unfairly put upon but still willing to compromise, princess jon.
Education is extremely important.
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To the Weimar point, I don’t know that one needs to express a strong point of view on relative worth of the tribes in order to appreciate the comparison. Seems like you could separate the implications from the blame at least temporarily, as an intellectual exercise at least.
@jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:
To the Weimar point, I don’t know that one needs to express a strong point of view on relative worth of the tribes in order to appreciate the comparison. Seems like you could separate the implications from the blame at least temporarily, as an intellectual exercise at least.
You're still free to make something interesting of the Weimar comparison. You've spent more words lamenting that nobody else is doing so, than doing so yourself. Unless the real point is to prance around about how the discussion isn't high enough level for your tastes.
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@jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:
What I don’t understand is why you didn’t lose your need for my approval when you made your transition. Seems like you need to learn to manage your resentment if we’re ever going to find an equilibrium. Which I hope at some point we’re able to do.
Magnanimous, unfairly put upon but still willing to compromise, princess jon.
@Horace said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:
@jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:
What I don’t understand is why you didn’t lose your need for my approval when you made your transition. Seems like you need to learn to manage your resentment if we’re ever going to find an equilibrium. Which I hope at some point we’re able to do.
Magnanimous, unfairly put upon but still willing to compromise, princess jon.
I get that you have to tell me to fuck off after posting something like that, and you will again after this post, but maybe give it some thought offline?
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In the last paragraph, Sullivan states, "He remains the only choice in this election."
Everything else if a veiled attempt to justify why "He remains the only choice in this election."
But he is a good mind reader. Much better than me. It would be so much fun to float through the post-structuralist haze of subjective facts, with the main point being what I quoted.
Since I can't mindread, I listen carefully to what the rioters and protesters say at 3:00 am, what I overhear them talk about on YouTube live-stream videos (before YouTube cut them all, and I mean all, so nothing much live after 1:00 am). The protesters and rioters are, in my assessment, quite braindead. The protesters have NOTHING of substance to say or comment upon (they're mostly kids that maybe thought "critical thinking" in high school meant scream loudest), however they are well trained to provide the antiphonal responses to the chant leaders, i.e., the cantor with the megaphone. The rioters are losers with a cause, whether it's a new TV or destroying anything they know deep down they could never create or build.
Based upon my late-night research and other stuff over the course of time, I really have to disagree with his devotion to "He remains the only choice in this election." He may be surprised that his readers think for themselves and laugh at his stupid loftiness.
Regarding Weimar and what little I know, Sullivan can sit in the wheelbarrow of useless cash and have his most thoughtful readers push him off a cliff. They could even slap a Biden/Harris bumper sticker on it before the heave-ho.
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Biden is a pale comparison to Weimar’s Hindenburg, but then again Trump is farce to the tragedy of Hitler.
Maybe Spain in the 30s is an interesting comparison to think through.
@jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:
Biden is a pale comparison to Weimar’s Hindenburg, but then again Trump is farce to the tragedy of Hitler.
Maybe Spain in the 30s is an interesting comparison to think through.
Good idea. I just spent 3 seconds covering everything I know about Spain in the 30's. Why don't you bring me (us) up to your level, so the obscure becomes obvious?
I could type "Spain" into Google. But somehow I don't think that will bring me the erudition you require in assumed great depth of knowledge you'd like discourse in. Sorry, trying to sound intelligent, I'm not good at it. And sorry for the preposition, but Aqua said it's OK.
