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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
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  3. Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar

Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar

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  • MikM Offline
    MikM Offline
    Mik
    wrote on last edited by Mik
    #4

    Hogwash. This nonsense started with increasingly radical actions by the left during Bush II. It ratcheted up before Trump even took office and Hillary, the heir apparent, did not receive her due.

    The right are not the ones trying to destroy everyone whose does not toe the line.

    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

    1 Reply Last reply
    • George KG Offline
      George KG Offline
      George K
      wrote on last edited by
      #5

      The establishment right and mainstream left tolerate their respective extremes because they hate each other so much.

      Where has "the establishment right" tolerated the rioting, looting, burning and assaults by members of the right?

      I'll wait for examples, but I won't hold my breath.

      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • George KG Offline
        George KG Offline
        George K
        wrote on last edited by George K
        #6

        The link.

        https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-trap-the-democrats-walked-right

        And, though Sarah Palin's gynecologist Sullivan does, indeed, say "this is very Weimar," the title of his essay is "The Trap The Democrats Walked Right Into."

        Remember the pivotal moment earlier this summer when the New York Times caved to its activist staff and fired James Bennet? It’s no accident this was over an op-ed that argued that if New York City would not stop the rioting in the streets, the feds should step in to restore order. For the far left activists who now control that paper, the imposition of order was seen not as an indispensable baseline for restoring democratic debate, but as a potential physical attack on black staffers. They saw restoring order within the prism of their own critical race ideology, which stipulates that the police are enforcers of white supremacy, and not enforcers of the rule of law in a liberal society. It was a sign that the establishment left were willing to tolerate disorder and chaos if they were directed toward the ideologically correct ends — which is how Democratic establishments in Minneapolis and Seattle and Portland responded. The NYT, CNN and the rest tried to ignore the inexcusable, and find increasingly pathetic ways to dismiss it. This week, their staggering bias was exposed as absurd.

        It is just as true, of course, that the president has shown a similarly cavalier and even more cynical attitude to urban unrest. In the case of the protests outside the White House earlier this summer, he deployed law enforcement so crudely and counter-productively that he seemed to want to inflame it still further for political reasons. He’s more than usually aware that chaos is always good for authoritarians, and has delighted in excoriating Democratic mayors and governors for tolerating it. He has also sent signals to law enforcement that he supports abuse of suspects, and ignored the real threat of white nationalism in police and military ranks, and of terroristic white nationalist movements in general.

        But Biden, let’s face it, is weak and a party man to his core, and has surrendered to the far left at almost every single turn — from abortion to immigration to race. You’d be a fool I think, to believe he could resist their fanaticism in office, or that if he does, he won’t be toast in a struggle to succeed him. He remains the only choice in this election. But on the central question of civil order, he blew it last week and so did the Dems. Biden needs a gesture of real Sister Souljah clarity to put daylight between him and the violent left. He has indeed condemned the riots, with caveats. But at some point, the caveats have to go. And the sooner the better.

        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • KincaidK Offline
          KincaidK Offline
          Kincaid
          wrote on last edited by
          #7

          From the article:

          "...mount a campaign from the outside to delegitimize the incoming president, backed by street-gangs and propaganda outfits."

          Does anyone see how we have been living this now for almost 4 years?

          1 Reply Last reply
          • MikM Offline
            MikM Offline
            Mik
            wrote on last edited by
            #8

            Yep. From the day after the election.

            “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

            George KG 1 Reply Last reply
            • MikM Mik

              Yep. From the day after the election.

              George KG Offline
              George KG Offline
              George K
              wrote on last edited by
              #9

              @Mik said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

              Yep. From the day after the election.

              Remember the outrage when Rush talked about Obama's election, saying, "I hope he fails?"

              I do.

              The day after Trump's election, we have Olbermann closing his show with the comment: "Resist."

              Yeah. How about that.

              "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

              The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • KincaidK Offline
                KincaidK Offline
                Kincaid
                wrote on last edited by Kincaid
                #10

                And as for "Donald Trump is an extinction level event for liberal democracy" -

                we are 4 years in and still waiting. (Frankly, my hesitancy to vote for him the first time around was because I thought he was a extinction level event for the US if not the world). #nuclearstrike

                HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                • Catseye3C Offline
                  Catseye3C Offline
                  Catseye3
                  wrote on last edited by Catseye3
                  #11

                  " . . . a failure of nerve on the part of liberals to defend the values and institutions of liberal democracy, and of conservatives to keep their own ranks free of raw demagogues and bigots . . . a growing sense of disorder and violence and rioting as simply the background noise; and a sense that authorities do not have the strength or the stomach to restore order."

                  "Tribalism is intensifying in every nook and cranny of the culture. The establishment right and mainstream left tolerate their respective extremes because they hate each other so much."

                  =========

                  I downloaded the book The Second Civil War by Ronald Brownstein. Probably won't get to it for awhile yet, but here's the writeup from Amazon:

                  In The Second Civil War, respected political commentator Ronald Brownstein diagnoses the electoral, demographic, and institutional forces that have wreaked such change over the American political landscape, pulling politics into the margins and leaving precious little common ground for compromise. The Second Civil War is not a book for Democrats or Republicans but for all Americans who are disturbed by our current political dysfunction and hungry for ways to understand it—and move beyond it.

                  Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • KincaidK Kincaid

                    And as for "Donald Trump is an extinction level event for liberal democracy" -

                    we are 4 years in and still waiting. (Frankly, my hesitancy to vote for him the first time around was because I thought he was a extinction level event for the US if not the world). #nuclearstrike

                    HoraceH Offline
                    HoraceH Offline
                    Horace
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #12

                    @Kincaid said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

                    And as for "Donald Trump is an extinction level event for liberal democracy" -

                    we are 4 years in and still waiting.

                    The left is only too happy to attempt to oblige. They know their rank and file will blame everything on Trump anyway. They have carte blanche in their own echo chamber. Really, just ask them.

                    Education is extremely important.

                    George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                    • HoraceH Horace

                      @Kincaid said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

                      And as for "Donald Trump is an extinction level event for liberal democracy" -

                      we are 4 years in and still waiting.

                      The left is only too happy to attempt to oblige. They know their rank and file will blame everything on Trump anyway. They have carte blanche in their own echo chamber. Really, just ask them.

                      George KG Offline
                      George KG Offline
                      George K
                      wrote on last edited by George K
                      #13

                      @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

                      The left is only too happy to attempt to oblige.

                      And the politicians supporting the left have been silent on the destruction, violence, looking until polls demonstrated that it's the wrong position because it might hurt their prospects.

                      <insert Forest Gump "And just like that...." meme here>

                      Talk about "awokening," LOL.

                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • JollyJ Offline
                        JollyJ Offline
                        Jolly
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #14

                        You reap what you sow.

                        Since the 2000 election, the country has been headed towards the abyss. The Left is magnitudes worse than the right, although both have their share of nuts. It just seems the Leftist nuts are becoming more mainstream for their political persuasion.

                        “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                        Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                        George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                        • JollyJ Jolly

                          You reap what you sow.

                          Since the 2000 election, the country has been headed towards the abyss. The Left is magnitudes worse than the right, although both have their share of nuts. It just seems the Leftist nuts are becoming more mainstream for their political persuasion.

                          George KG Offline
                          George KG Offline
                          George K
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #15

                          @Jolly said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

                          The Left is magnitudes worse than the right, although both have their share of nuts.

                          Again, I ask: Point me to the mayhem, riots, destruction, personal attacks, and intimidation that the right has encouraged and performed in the last 4 months.

                          "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                          The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • jon-nycJ Offline
                            jon-nycJ Offline
                            jon-nyc
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #16

                            I should have quoted a smaller segment. I was thinking we’d have the new-to-us conversation about the Weimar comparison, not the age old conversation about blame.

                            Only non-witches get due process.

                            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                            George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                            • HoraceH Offline
                              HoraceH Offline
                              Horace
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #17

                              It's understandable that having enthusiastically participated in the tribal response that is largely to blame for the mayhem, you would find the blame game tiresome, and prefer to engage in a more zoomed out academic discussion of the proceedings. But if you would like to expound on your thoughts re: the Weimar comparison, you are welcome to.

                              Education is extremely important.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • jon-nycJ Offline
                                jon-nycJ Offline
                                jon-nyc
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #18

                                Nah.

                                Only non-witches get due process.

                                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                  I should have quoted a smaller segment. I was thinking we’d have the new-to-us conversation about the Weimar comparison, not the age old conversation about blame.

                                  George KG Offline
                                  George KG Offline
                                  George K
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #19

                                  @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

                                  I should have quoted a smaller segment. I was thinking we’d have the new-to-us conversation about the Weimar comparison, not the age old conversation about blame.

                                  The problem is that Sullivan equates the positions of the new left with the extreme right, when that's a false equivalence.

                                  As TuCa said, about 10 minutes ago, "When is the last time a bunch of Trump supporters looted a Target, attacked you at a restaurant, or torched a police station."

                                  Once you can answer that question, we can talk about Weimar comparisons and the tribes. If you can't then it's a false equivalence at best, and a bald-faced lie at worst.

                                  "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                  The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • HoraceH Offline
                                    HoraceH Offline
                                    Horace
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #20

                                    Here's jon next door:

                                    Politically, at least, I post on broadly the same two themes in both forums. One is something like 'Trumpism is a danger to the republic and must be stopped' and the other is something like 'The post-liberal left is a danger to the republic and must be stopped'. In each forum everyone seems to like one or the other topic, only a tiny handful seem genuinely sympathetic to both.

                                    Since he's slipped into princess jon mode in this thread, that is probably the most we'll get from him regarding his opinion that yes, the left and right are equally bad right now.

                                    Education is extremely important.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • jon-nycJ Offline
                                      jon-nycJ Offline
                                      jon-nyc
                                      wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                                      #21

                                      What I don’t understand is why you didn’t lose your need for my approval when you made your transition. Seems like you need to learn to manage your resentment if we’re ever going to find an equilibrium. Which I hope at some point we’re able to do.

                                      Only non-witches get due process.

                                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                      HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                                      • jon-nycJ Offline
                                        jon-nycJ Offline
                                        jon-nyc
                                        wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                                        #22

                                        To the Weimar point, I don’t know that one needs to express a strong point of view on relative worth of the tribes in order to appreciate the comparison. Seems like you could separate the implications from the blame at least temporarily, as an intellectual exercise at least.

                                        Only non-witches get due process.

                                        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                        HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                                        • MikM Offline
                                          MikM Offline
                                          Mik
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #23

                                          Not when your starting position is the current administration as an 'extinction level event' for the republic. If Sullivan would like to forego playing the blame game perhaps others might be more amenable to entertaining the idea. But I won't hold my breath.

                                          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

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