Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar

George K · "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

The link.

https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-trap-the-democrats-walked-right

And, though ~~Sarah Palin's gynecologist~~ Sullivan does, indeed, say "this is very Weimar," the title of his essay is "The Trap The Democrats Walked Right Into."

Remember the pivotal moment earlier this summer when the New York Times caved to its activist staff and fired James Bennet? It’s no accident this was over an op-ed that argued that if New York City would not stop the rioting in the streets, the feds should step in to restore order. For the far left activists who now control that paper, the imposition of order was seen not as an indispensable baseline for restoring democratic debate, but as a potential physical attack on black staffers. They saw restoring order within the prism of their own critical race ideology, which stipulates that the police are enforcers of white supremacy, and not enforcers of the rule of law in a liberal society. It was a sign that the establishment left were willing to tolerate disorder and chaos if they were directed toward the ideologically correct ends — which is how Democratic establishments in Minneapolis and Seattle and Portland responded. The NYT, CNN and the rest tried to ignore the inexcusable, and find increasingly pathetic ways to dismiss it. This week, their staggering bias was exposed as absurd.

It is just as true, of course, that the president has shown a similarly cavalier and even more cynical attitude to urban unrest. In the case of the protests outside the White House earlier this summer, he deployed law enforcement so crudely and counter-productively that he seemed to want to inflame it still further for political reasons. He’s more than usually aware that chaos is always good for authoritarians, and has delighted in excoriating Democratic mayors and governors for tolerating it. He has also sent signals to law enforcement that he supports abuse of suspects, and ignored the real threat of white nationalism in police and military ranks, and of terroristic white nationalist movements in general.

But Biden, let’s face it, is weak and a party man to his core, and has surrendered to the far left at almost every single turn — from abortion to immigration to race. You’d be a fool I think, to believe he could resist their fanaticism in office, or that if he does, he won’t be toast in a struggle to succeed him. He remains the only choice in this election. But on the central question of civil order, he blew it last week and so did the Dems. Biden needs a gesture of real Sister Souljah clarity to put daylight between him and the violent left. He has indeed condemned the riots, with caveats. But at some point, the caveats have to go. And the sooner the better.

Kincaid

From the article:

"...mount a campaign from the outside to delegitimize the incoming president, backed by street-gangs and propaganda outfits."

Does anyone see how we have been living this now for almost 4 years?

Mik

Yep. From the day after the election.

George K · "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

@Mik said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

Yep. From the day after the election.

Remember the outrage when Rush talked about Obama's election, saying, "I hope he fails?"

I do.

The day after Trump's election, we have Olbermann closing his show with the comment: "Resist."

Yeah. How about that.

Kincaid

And as for "Donald Trump is an extinction level event for liberal democracy" -

we are 4 years in and still waiting. (Frankly, my hesitancy to vote for him the first time around was because I thought he was a extinction level event for the US if not the world). #nuclearstrike

Catseye3

" . . . a failure of nerve on the part of liberals to defend the values and institutions of liberal democracy, and of conservatives to keep their own ranks free of raw demagogues and bigots . . . a growing sense of disorder and violence and rioting as simply the background noise; and a sense that authorities do not have the strength or the stomach to restore order."

"Tribalism is intensifying in every nook and cranny of the culture. The establishment right and mainstream left tolerate their respective extremes because they hate each other so much."

=========

I downloaded the book The Second Civil War by Ronald Brownstein. Probably won't get to it for awhile yet, but here's the writeup from Amazon:

In The Second Civil War, respected political commentator Ronald Brownstein diagnoses the electoral, demographic, and institutional forces that have wreaked such change over the American political landscape, pulling politics into the margins and leaving precious little common ground for compromise. The Second Civil War is not a book for Democrats or Republicans but for all Americans who are disturbed by our current political dysfunction and hungry for ways to understand it—and move beyond it.

Horace

@Kincaid said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

And as for "Donald Trump is an extinction level event for liberal democracy" -

we are 4 years in and still waiting.

The left is only too happy to attempt to oblige. They know their rank and file will blame everything on Trump anyway. They have carte blanche in their own echo chamber. Really, just ask them.

George K · "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

@Horace said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

The left is only too happy to attempt to oblige.

And the politicians supporting the left have been silent on the destruction, violence, looking until polls demonstrated that it's the wrong position because it might hurt their prospects.

Talk about "awokening," LOL.

Jolly

You reap what you sow.

Since the 2000 election, the country has been headed towards the abyss. The Left is magnitudes worse than the right, although both have their share of nuts. It just seems the Leftist nuts are becoming more mainstream for their political persuasion.

George K · "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

@Jolly said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

The Left is magnitudes worse than the right, although both have their share of nuts.

Again, I ask: Point me to the mayhem, riots, destruction, personal attacks, and intimidation that the right has encouraged and performed in the last 4 months.

jon-nyc

I should have quoted a smaller segment. I was thinking we’d have the new-to-us conversation about the Weimar comparison, not the age old conversation about blame.

Horace

It's understandable that having enthusiastically participated in the tribal response that is largely to blame for the mayhem, you would find the blame game tiresome, and prefer to engage in a more zoomed out academic discussion of the proceedings. But if you would like to expound on your thoughts re: the Weimar comparison, you are welcome to.

jon-nyc

Nah.

George K · "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

@jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

I should have quoted a smaller segment. I was thinking we’d have the new-to-us conversation about the Weimar comparison, not the age old conversation about blame.

The problem is that Sullivan equates the positions of the new left with the extreme right, when that's a false equivalence.

As TuCa said, about 10 minutes ago, "When is the last time a bunch of Trump supporters looted a Target, attacked you at a restaurant, or torched a police station."

Once you can answer that question, we can talk about Weimar comparisons and the tribes. If you can't then it's a false equivalence at best, and a bald-faced lie at worst.

Horace

Here's jon next door:

Politically, at least, I post on broadly the same two themes in both forums. One is something like 'Trumpism is a danger to the republic and must be stopped' and the other is something like 'The post-liberal left is a danger to the republic and must be stopped'. In each forum everyone seems to like one or the other topic, only a tiny handful seem genuinely sympathetic to both.

Since he's slipped into princess jon mode in this thread, that is probably the most we'll get from him regarding his opinion that yes, the left and right are equally bad right now.

jon-nyc

What I don’t understand is why you didn’t lose your need for my approval when you made your transition. Seems like you need to learn to manage your resentment if we’re ever going to find an equilibrium. Which I hope at some point we’re able to do.

jon-nyc

To the Weimar point, I don’t know that one needs to express a strong point of view on relative worth of the tribes in order to appreciate the comparison. Seems like you could separate the implications from the blame at least temporarily, as an intellectual exercise at least.

Mik

Not when your starting position is the current administration as an 'extinction level event' for the republic. If Sullivan would like to forego playing the blame game perhaps others might be more amenable to entertaining the idea. But I won't hold my breath.

Horace

@jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

What I don’t understand is why you didn’t lose your need for my approval when you made your transition. Seems like you need to learn to manage your resentment if we’re ever going to find an equilibrium. Which I hope at some point we’re able to do.

Magnanimous, unfairly put upon but still willing to compromise, princess jon.

Horace

@jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar:

To the Weimar point, I don’t know that one needs to express a strong point of view on relative worth of the tribes in order to appreciate the comparison. Seems like you could separate the implications from the blame at least temporarily, as an intellectual exercise at least.

You're still free to make something interesting of the Weimar comparison. You've spent more words lamenting that nobody else is doing so, than doing so yourself. Unless the real point is to prance around about how the discussion isn't high enough level for your tastes.

The New Coffee Room

Andrew Sullivan: This is very Weimar