ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis

[AndyD]

@jon-nyc said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:

@AndyD said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:

I'd like to think I would have got out of the car as requested.
I'd like to think I would have dived out of the way of the accelerating car and not shot.

It's not a perfect world.

All your points about her doing the wrong thing and acting illegally are valid. It doesn't warrant execution. At least two of the mans shots were fired after the bumper moved beyond him.

This I've now seen on BBC Verify and agree. The first shot was from in front as the driver moved forward and is reasonably defensive.
The next two were through the side window. I hope your FBI prosecute him.

[Renauda]

@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:

I'm also not the guy to increase the temperature by using such words, except ironically.

Yes of course. It could not be otherwise as I am sure, being the erstwhile and principled libertarian you appear to be, you have your reasons. Nevertheless, I am glad the days of raging fevers here seem to have passed.

[Horace]

@Renauda said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:

@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:

I'm also not the guy to increase the temperature by using such words, except ironically.

Yes of course. It could not be otherwise as I am sure, being the erstwhile and principled libertarian you appear to be, you have your reasons. Nevertheless, I am glad the days of raging fevers here seem to have passed.

I've probably been guilty of using incendiary language in the past.

[Mik]

Renauda, I agree. She was terrified by masked individuals in unmarked vehicles and inconsistent uniforms approaching her yelling and trying to drag her out of the car. She did exactly what I have told my daughter to do in such a situation - floor it and we'll deal with the consequences later. If she runs over someone, so be it. Now the difference is my daughter would not have been doing what this woman very likely was, trying to interfere with law enforcement activities. She probably did know these were LEOs. But it still did not justify their approach or the consequences. She was pretty clearly not Somalian or Hispanic.

[Horace]

She was there to agitate and block the ability of LEOs to do their job. Explicitly. That is why she was there. Her wife was filming. It was a social media anti-ICE stunt. But ICE has guns, and big SUVs can actually be considered deadly weapons in the heats of moments. A moment she absolutely wanted to be in.

[Renauda]

You’re probably right. We will all hear how many rounds hit her where on her body she was struck. We know one round entered the driver’s side windshield. As @jon-nyc already pointed out the LEO also did appear to fire twice into the back of the escaping vehicle. Would be most embarrassing if the killing shot was to the back of her head..

[Horace]

@Renauda said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:

You’re probably right. We will all hear how many rounds hit her where on her body she was struck. We know one round entered the driver’s side windshield. As @jon-nyc already pointed out the LEO also did appear to fire twice into the back of the escaping vehicle. Would be most embarrassing if the killing shot was to the back of her head..

Yeah those who want to apply force are probably overrepresented in professions where the use of force is an option. This is part of the FAFO equation.

[Renauda]

@Horace

Indeed. The coroner’s autopsy ought to shed some light on the question.

I still maintain that she should have been dealt with later - her vehicle would have been easily traceable - and through good services the municipal Police who are actually trained to deal with public mischief perps.

[kluurs]

Why would she be directing traffic to move forward if she were trying to impede traffic? I'm still unsure of her intentions. I remember a group of folks were convinced the a police officer was guilty of manslaughter while she said she thought she had a Taser in her hands. The fact that she screamed "Taser, Taser" seemed to me to suggest that she really did confuse the two weapons - as challenging as it was for some to believe that two very different appearing weapons were involved.

[Renauda]

@kluurs

Why would she be directing traffic to move forward if she were trying to impede traffic? I'm still unsure of her intentions.

Noam and other Admin minions are certain the deceased was a fanatic left wing domestic terrorist with malign intent.

I think her intent didn’t extend beyond being a nuisance engaged obstructive public mischief. Most certainly nowhere as mischievous or obstructionist as were the January 6 doofuses who, as we have been repeatedly told, were peacefully taking selfies in front of the Capitol building until provoked by law enforcement.

[89th]

@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:

She was there to agitate and block the ability of LEOs to do their job. Explicitly. That is why she was there. Her wife was filming. It was a social media anti-ICE stunt. But ICE has guns, and big SUVs can actually be considered deadly weapons in the heats of moments. A moment she absolutely wanted to be in.

Yeah, it was truly a FAFO moment. I still think the officer didn’t expect to discharge his weapon but once he did he committed to the act.

[LuFins Dad]

Another story where both sides get what they want. How nice.

[LuFins Dad]

There are stories now that she had resisted arrest 3-4 times that day, using her vehicle to bar agents, then pulling away when they tried to arrest her. That is a very dangerous game and kind of shakes the whole “she panicked” narrative.

[LuFins Dad]

[Mik]

Stories don’t help. From what I have seen it was in no way justified. And I normally come down on the side of law enforcement in these things. The guy should not have been in front of the vehicle. They are trained not to do that. He drew his weapon before she started moving forward.

[jon-nyc]

Though in fairness I need to add a ‘yet’ to the end of that quote.

[kluurs]

From [Nation] February 28, 2014. (https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/us-border-agents-intentionally-stepped-front-moving-vehicles-justify-shooting-them/)

US Border Agents Intentionally Stepped in Front of Moving Vehicles to Justify Shooting at Them

The Los Angeles Times obtained an internal review of US Border Patrol’s use-of-force policies, which US Customs and Border Protection has refused to release publicly (members of Congress have seen a summary). While the Times did not offer the report in full, the paper did publish previously unseen snippets that portray a law enforcement agency operating under loose use-of-force standards and little accountability.

The review was completed in February 2013 by the Police Executive Research Forum, a nonprofit that develops best practices for law enforcement use-of-force policies. It examined sixty-seven use-of-force incidents by federal border agents near the US-Mexico border that resulted in nineteen deaths.

Here are some key findings of the review, revealed by the Times Thursday:

Border Patrol agents have intentionally and unnecessarily stepped in front of moving cars to justify using deadly force against vehicle occupants.

Agents have shot in frustration across the US-Mexico border at rock throwers when simply moving away was an option.

Border Patrol demonstrates a “lack of diligence” in investigating incidents in which US agents fire their weapons.

It’s questionable whether Border Patrol “consistently and thoroughly reviews” incidents in which agents use deadly force.

The report is especially scathing in its critique of agents who’ve stood in front of moving vehicles, recommending that they “get out of the way…as opposed to intentionally assuming a position in front of such vehicles.” The authors add:

It should be recognized that a half-ounce (200-grain) bullet is unlikely to stop a 4,000-pound moving vehicle, and if the driver…is disabled by a bullet, the vehicle will become a totally unguided threat… Obviously, shooting at a moving vehicle can pose a risk to bystanders including other agents.

The report recommends that Border Patrol bar agents from shooting at vehicles unless their lives are threatened and also from firing at rock throwers. An internal response by Border Patrol, also obtained by the Los Angeles Times, rejected both these recommendations. The agency said a ban on shooting at rock throwers would endanger agents because they work “in rural or desolate areas, often alone, where concealment, cover and egress is not an option,” and that a ban on shooting vehicles would empower drug smugglers to run over agents. The response echoes statements made by Border Patrol chief Mike Fisher in November.

At least twenty-one people have been killed by Border Patrol agents working on the US-Mexico border since 2010. In 2012, agents shot at a 16-year-old boy multiple times in the back, killing him. The latest fatality happened this month, when a border agent near San Diego shot and killed an undocumented migrant for throwing rocks, one of which struck the agent in the head. In all these cases, it’s unknown as to whether any of the agents involved were disciplined, as CBP does not make that information public.

[Mik]

Geraldo Rivera apparently found the DOJ policy on defense against a car.

After some back and forth with Holmstrom, Rivera added, “Let me read one sentence. This is the use-of-force policy of the Department of Justice. Quote: ‘Agents may not fire at a moving car that is threatening them unless no other objectively reasonable means of defense appear to exist, which includes moving out of the path of the vehicle.‘ This is DOJ policy, signed off on by the country’s 25 largest cities.”

[LuFins Dad]

This isn’t an all or nothing type of thing. We can recognize that the agent’s actions crossed a line and based on the past history, he really shouldn’t have been in the field. We can also recognize that the woman and her wife weren’t heroes or victims, but instead were idiots that were full of shit, and by willfully putting yourself into violent confrontations can and should expect violence to happen.

We can also recognize that some culpability does lie with the administration, the agency, and the policy shortfalls while also recognizing that the opposition that twists and manipulates while also promoting forcible resistance also bears responsibility.

TLDR version? They’re all a bunch of assholes and anybody that puts all the blame one way or the other are doing nothing but continuing the cycle.

[Mik]

I'd buy that with the caveat that our concern needs to be the fact that someone was killed and how do we prevent it from happening again. My contention is that this would not have happened if the officer had followed procedure.