Marriage advice
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@jon-nyc yeah baby steps. Maybe I'll even just say "hey this weekend let's try and clear up the dining room" just to plant the idea instead of coming in and saying "Ok it's time to clear up the dining table."
@jodi Good questions, it's hard to answer without sounding a certain way, but I provide I think more than even my fair share of support. I'm fortunate to work from home, so for the first hour of the day, I normally have 2 of the kids in the basement with me (my wife is getting our oldest ready for the school bus), then I make their breakfast, then I go to work, then after work I come up, and I make their snack, I clean up, and I usually make half the dinners, I usually do the dishes, and the trash. I take care of all outside work, all the bills, probably 80% of the baths, and am the one to get up when a kid gets up at night, mainly because I can fall back asleep so fast (she can't). On the weekend I usually take all 3 kids out for Saturday morning just so she gets a break. She takes care of laundry (not mine), groceries, and of course watching the 2 year old (and 5 year old when he's not in preschool) during the day. I know on paper I do more than my fair share, especially for a working husband, but that is fine, honestly. It's just the inability to bring up the clutter conversation without it being a triggering event. The advice/stories in this thread have helped me a bit, appreciate it.
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Ok, I did not remember that you had 3 kids. (For me, two was so much harder than one, and 3 would have sent me over the edge, lol). I did not know you worked from home, And it does sound like you do your share of the work. So you have a clutter problem (or a problem where clutter is the end result) that needs to be fixed for your own sanity. Not sure she’s going to be able to fix the clutter - the inability to throw anything out was an issue for mom, though she kept hers hidden - she had serious anxiety issues and I didn’t realize how bad they were until I had to go through her things in the basement when she moved into memory care - omg, she saved EVERYTHING, will little notes and lists on stuff, it was like she was afraid to throw it away because it might be important, or she might miss it, or maybe she just needed something she felt that she was in control of. So you are likely going to need help with that - counseling, maybe, if you can convince your wife. We (both Steve and I) have multiple hobbies that require lots of stuff - and his idea of organized is way different than mine, so I’m constantly buying storage bins and rolling carts etc and sorting through the stuff that gets left out to “help” - but mostly it’s to keep myself sane, as I can’t focus when things get too cluttered. If you can’t get her to agree to some sort of counseling (the clutter is probably the end result of other issues?) then can you quietly carve out a space for yourself that isn’t cluttered? I’m sorry - this kind of thing is really hard to deal with, and everything is amplified when the kids are small and are so much work.
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Yeah going from 2 to 3 kids was substantially harder (although 2 was hard, as can be just 1!). There's zero chance she'd ever do counseling, if anything she might admit she knows it's clutter (she says she hates clutter too) but just doesn't think she has the time to clean it up. Of course, the scrolling on the phone and reading her kindle would be evidence otherwise. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, just venting I suppose.
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Will she let you deal with the clutter without it triggering anger - as in go through the toys and the extra clothes and donate the ones that no longer fit, or were stained or whatever, purchase some cute bins or storage shelves with those pull out baskets to store the extra stuff (they really do help). And would you consider going to some sort of marriage/family counseling by yourself to get some help on how to deal with this issue - both the clutter issue and your unhappiness with it? That might help also. My mom could have used some counseling/therapy. But I’m pretty sure she thought she was too smart to need it. My daughter is a child and family therapist - it’s amazingly to talk to her these days (compared to how she was as a teenager!) - especially as we are going through our parents dementias and deaths. Having someone with that training to listen and counsel has been really helpful.
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TNCR is my therapist! We have plenty of storage bins and places, it's just they aren't used or things aren't put back where they belong afterwards. I do tidy-up spaces solo. It's funny to watch the kids say "wow look at all this space!" or discover an old toy like it's the first time, but unfortunately my wife won't ever say thanks, and I get the feeling she resents when I clean up their mess. Meh.
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You do what you have to do to stay sane. I look at it this way - there are things that make me crazy, but the things that I love outweigh those things, so I figure out how to manage the crazy things myself, even if it requires a little more time and effort on my part to feel at peace. The tiny kid stage felt like it lasted forever, but once it’s gone, I wonder where the time went!
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You might start by asking what you might do to help her. You're not going to get through this by thinking you're doing enough already. I understand the feeling, but it's not helpful. It's never 50-50. Whatever you do, avoid making it confrontational. If she does talk, just listen and firmly resist the urge to provide a solution. It is difficult because as guys, that's what we do - we fix stuff. It will feel a bit like patronizing her, but trust me, it's not. It's something I cannot grasp emotionally, but I acknowledge it on an intellectual level.
You seem to be picking up on being indirect.
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You might start by asking what you might do to help her. You're not going to get through this by thinking you're doing enough already. I understand the feeling, but it's not helpful. It's never 50-50. Whatever you do, avoid making it confrontational. If she does talk, just listen and firmly resist the urge to provide a solution. It is difficult because as guys, that's what we do - we fix stuff. It will feel a bit like patronizing her, but trust me, it's not. It's something I cannot grasp emotionally, but I acknowledge it on an intellectual level.
You seem to be picking up on being indirect.
@Mik said in Marriage advice:
If she does talk, just listen and firmly resist the urge to provide a solution. It is difficult because as guys, that's what we do - we fix stuff.
Haha yes isn't that the truth. It's very hard for someone to present a problem and even ask for advice and, well, not give them the solution.
The funny part is she is identical to her mom. They talk every day, same general food preferences, shopping habits, opinions about life, except her mom has become a minimalist lately. Maybe as @jodi says this will smooth out in a few years when all kids are in school...
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Not much to add to what's being said - I agree very much that small steps are much less painful, and also that trying to 'fix' what you see as somebody else's problem like an engineer is not a good way to approach it - that's something that I've been guilty of, and still struggle with.
It's very easy to build up resentment, particularly if it feels as though you're doing more than 50% of the work, and both Mrs. Phibes and I have been guilty of that on a number of occasions. Counselling can be quite a bit more helpful than you might imagine, but you both have to want to go.
In terms of reducing mess and clutter, we've found the Facebook Free Marketplace to be a great place for getting rid of things you don't really think you can sell, but that feel too good to just throw away - old toys, gadgets you don't need. I got rid of an old stereo which was in full working order - they guy was made up that he was getting it for free, and I was made up to free up the space. Full disclosure - our house is a lot messier than we'd like it to be.
I was only joking
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only thing i cant resist buying is books. other than that, im such a non shopper. ill wear or use the same item until it disentegrates. and its not from frugalness, its just...the way I’m am.
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Not much to add to what's being said - I agree very much that small steps are much less painful, and also that trying to 'fix' what you see as somebody else's problem like an engineer is not a good way to approach it - that's something that I've been guilty of, and still struggle with.
It's very easy to build up resentment, particularly if it feels as though you're doing more than 50% of the work, and both Mrs. Phibes and I have been guilty of that on a number of occasions. Counselling can be quite a bit more helpful than you might imagine, but you both have to want to go.
In terms of reducing mess and clutter, we've found the Facebook Free Marketplace to be a great place for getting rid of things you don't really think you can sell, but that feel too good to just throw away - old toys, gadgets you don't need. I got rid of an old stereo which was in full working order - they guy was made up that he was getting it for free, and I was made up to free up the space. Full disclosure - our house is a lot messier than we'd like it to be.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Marriage advice:
It's very easy to build up resentment, particularly if it feels as though you're doing more than 50% of the work, and both Mrs. Phibes and I have been guilty of that on a number of occasions.
It's weird, if you twisted my arm I'd say I do much more than 50% but truly and sincerely I don't mind. Someone once said marriage should be 60/40 where each partner should try to give the 60%, so that's how I view it. I'd do 100% as long as she's happy, that's what I care about. With this situation it's more about how to address a clutter issue that she creates and has plenty of time during the day to address if it weren't for the distractions. ChatGPT told me to address it more as "this clutter is making me stressed" vs "your clutter needs to be fixed". Baby steps....
In terms of reducing mess and clutter, we've found the Facebook Free Marketplace to be a great place for getting rid of things you don't really think you can sell, but that feel too good to just throw away - old toys, gadgets you don't need.
Good idea, as long as you have a partner willing to part ways! I actually have a whole corner of our basement storage area of baby things (clothes, toys, gadgets, etc) that are absolutely ready to be given away once I get the nod of approval. Maybe I could be more of a dick about it, but ultimately it's not hurting anything sitting there and I know getting rid of baby stuff is more sentimental, too.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Marriage advice:
It's very easy to build up resentment, particularly if it feels as though you're doing more than 50% of the work, and both Mrs. Phibes and I have been guilty of that on a number of occasions.
It's weird, if you twisted my arm I'd say I do much more than 50% but truly and sincerely I don't mind. Someone once said marriage should be 60/40 where each partner should try to give the 60%, so that's how I view it. I'd do 100% as long as she's happy, that's what I care about. With this situation it's more about how to address a clutter issue that she creates and has plenty of time during the day to address if it weren't for the distractions. ChatGPT told me to address it more as "this clutter is making me stressed" vs "your clutter needs to be fixed". Baby steps....
In terms of reducing mess and clutter, we've found the Facebook Free Marketplace to be a great place for getting rid of things you don't really think you can sell, but that feel too good to just throw away - old toys, gadgets you don't need.
Good idea, as long as you have a partner willing to part ways! I actually have a whole corner of our basement storage area of baby things (clothes, toys, gadgets, etc) that are absolutely ready to be given away once I get the nod of approval. Maybe I could be more of a dick about it, but ultimately it's not hurting anything sitting there and I know getting rid of baby stuff is more sentimental, too.
@89th said in Marriage advice:
this situation it's more about how to address a clutter issue that she creates and has plenty of time during the day to address if it weren't for the distractions.I do think you need to tell her the clutter is stressing you out, but you have to figure out how to do it without the judgement (I’m stressed by the clutter and it’s your fault). Based on your words above - I get extremely irritated when Steve occasionally comments on the amount of time I spend doing (whatever it is I’m doing to decompress) if I think he’s making a judgement comment on my choices and thinks I should be doing something else. With little kids you really do not feel like any of your time is your own. So even if you think she’s got time, she may not feel like it. Her idea of how much time she has may never match yours, and that may always cause you stress.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Marriage advice:
It's very easy to build up resentment, particularly if it feels as though you're doing more than 50% of the work, and both Mrs. Phibes and I have been guilty of that on a number of occasions.
It's weird, if you twisted my arm I'd say I do much more than 50% but truly and sincerely I don't mind. Someone once said marriage should be 60/40 where each partner should try to give the 60%, so that's how I view it. I'd do 100% as long as she's happy, that's what I care about. With this situation it's more about how to address a clutter issue that she creates and has plenty of time during the day to address if it weren't for the distractions. ChatGPT told me to address it more as "this clutter is making me stressed" vs "your clutter needs to be fixed". Baby steps....
In terms of reducing mess and clutter, we've found the Facebook Free Marketplace to be a great place for getting rid of things you don't really think you can sell, but that feel too good to just throw away - old toys, gadgets you don't need.
Good idea, as long as you have a partner willing to part ways! I actually have a whole corner of our basement storage area of baby things (clothes, toys, gadgets, etc) that are absolutely ready to be given away once I get the nod of approval. Maybe I could be more of a dick about it, but ultimately it's not hurting anything sitting there and I know getting rid of baby stuff is more sentimental, too.
@89th said in Marriage advice:
Good idea, as long as you have a partner willing to part ways! I actually have a whole corner of our basement storage area of baby things (clothes, toys, gadgets, etc) that are absolutely ready to be given away once I get the nod of approval. Maybe I could be more of a dick about it, but ultimately it's not hurting anything sitting there and I know getting rid of baby stuff is more sentimental, too.
We've been carefully keeping quantities of paperwork from kindergarten and elementary school in boxes in the downstairs garage for reasons that aren't fully clear to me.
Apparently, mice love to recycle even more than we do, and made some of it into affordable housing.
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@89th - we're in a very similar situation. All caveats about how great a person and mom my wife is (all true), she has a consumption issue. I think it's much easier to have this issue than it has been in the past.
Our houses are bigger, we have Amazon, impulse buying has moved from the aisle to your bedroom.
Luckily our common living spaces are tidy, and she hates a messy kitchen. Outside of that (our bedroom, the playroom, kids bedrooms) - not so much.
Lots of good advice in this thread, but change is hard. I've worked my wife to the point of recognizing that it's better if every item in the house has a specific place to live, and not only space for itself, but breathing space so that it can actually be found and used.
That's step 1, I guess. But changing habits is hard. We're on that step right now. She has to want to do it, as Jodi said you typically can't berate a person into doing that.
It doesn't help that I've become sort of a minimalist as I've gotten older. We're pretty far from each other on this topic.
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Yeah, it's funny how we have similar lives in many respects these days, age, house issues, kids, 1st world problems... When we got our kitchen counters redone a few months ago there was a period where she wanted nothing at all on the counters, which was refreshing. But that phase has moved on...
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Yeah, I can relate. While we don't have kids here anymore, Janet will sometimes get the urge to buy something she likes when we are in the position of shedding 32 years of accumulated stuff. My approach is everything that comes in must be offset by at LEAST one similar item that goes out. It's not that we're really cluttered, we just don't need all this stuff and it is an albatross around your life's neck.
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@89th - we're in a very similar situation. All caveats about how great a person and mom my wife is (all true), she has a consumption issue. I think it's much easier to have this issue than it has been in the past.
Our houses are bigger, we have Amazon, impulse buying has moved from the aisle to your bedroom.
Luckily our common living spaces are tidy, and she hates a messy kitchen. Outside of that (our bedroom, the playroom, kids bedrooms) - not so much.
Lots of good advice in this thread, but change is hard. I've worked my wife to the point of recognizing that it's better if every item in the house has a specific place to live, and not only space for itself, but breathing space so that it can actually be found and used.
That's step 1, I guess. But changing habits is hard. We're on that step right now. She has to want to do it, as Jodi said you typically can't berate a person into doing that.
It doesn't help that I've become sort of a minimalist as I've gotten older. We're pretty far from each other on this topic.
@xenon said in Marriage advice:
Lots of good advice in this thread, but change is hard. I've worked my wife to the point of recognizing that it's better if every item in the house has a specific place to live, and not only space for itself, but breathing space so that it can actually be found and used.
This is the key for me. I am a clear plastic storage box - label and categorize - and every shelf or set of shelves has an activity category - camping, auto, tools, paint supplies, etc. Stuff HAS to be in the area it goes in, otherwise I will never find it again. I think the organizing thing is probably related to an OCD (but also ADHD) thing in my personality. I tend to get everything out at once, work on multiple projects, and then I have a meltdown moment and spend a day getting everything tucked back into the assigned spots so I can start back in on the projects with less anxiety.
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Ugh. Happy wife, happy life… Keep chanting it…
