Well, die then.
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@Axtremus said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, point your finger at this child and tell her to die.
The solution is simple and readily available: just vaccinate the child already.
Not if the mother has a religious objection.
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@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Not if the mother has a religious objection.
The mother can die on her chosen cross if she wishes. But don't take the child with her. It's just not good parenting.
@Axtremus said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Not if the mother has a religious objection.
The mother can die on her chosen cross if she wishes. But don't take the child with her. It's just not good parenting.
And what do you know about parenting?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@jon-nyc said in Well, die then.:
We talked about this in the early vaccine period. This is nothing new, and nothing specific to Covid.
Organs are hard to come by, and don't last long in people who don't take good care of them. History of non-compliance with medical advice is a contraindication for transplant. If I had refused, say, a tetanus shot or a Hep B vaccine prior to tx I would have been delisted. This used to be non-controversial, at least outside of Christian Scientist and Granola-Chick antivaxx circles.
I don't think people view mRNA vaccines the same as an attenuated virus vaccine. In fact, mRNA vaccines don't quite qualify for the classic definition of vaccine.
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
@jon-nyc said in Well, die then.:
We talked about this in the early vaccine period. This is nothing new, and nothing specific to Covid.
Organs are hard to come by, and don't last long in people who don't take good care of them. History of non-compliance with medical advice is a contraindication for transplant. If I had refused, say, a tetanus shot or a Hep B vaccine prior to tx I would have been delisted. This used to be non-controversial, at least outside of Christian Scientist and Granola-Chick antivaxx circles.
I don't think people view mRNA vaccines the same as an attenuated virus vaccine. In fact, mRNA vaccines don't quite qualify for the classic definition of vaccine.
True, and it wouldn't surprise me if some programs have relaxed the Covid vaccine requirement, if the patient had acquired immunity.
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@89th said in Well, die then.:
Wow ok, so the mom has 12 kids (adopted?) good for her, crazy...but good for her. She isn't vaccinating them because the Holy Spirit told her not to. Ok, I'm not one to judge the Holy Spirit, but that's at least her "reasoning".
More specifically, the child has " Ebstein’s anomaly and Wolff-Parkinson-White Syndrome" and "there is a higher risk of death if infected with COVID compared to other patients, according to Dr. Camille Kotton, the clinical director of transplant and immunocompromised host infectious diseases at Massachusetts General Hospital."
But according to the mom, she is confident would not have any problems with COVID-19 after the transplant.
Who ya gonna trust?
It sucks but again, the policy makes sense to me.
And...let's interject a few facts, shall we?
What does the child have? Two congenital heart defects. One is a tricuspid valve problem. The other is a nerve impulse problem that leads to tachycardia and A-fib.
Any transplant patient is put on immunosuppressive therapy. The survival rate for a heart transplant patient is about 10 years.
COVID, by its very nature, has a vascular component, one we are still not completely sure about the mechanism and long-term effects. It is true that a heart transplant patient with severe COVID has a 25% chance of dying.
It is also true that any transplant patient has a higher risk of getting COVID, because of their anti-rejection drugs and because of their higher interaction with the medical system.
However, it is also true that COVID has multiple variants now, many of which the mRNA vaccine is useless against. In my opinion, the current COVID vaccine is less effective than the current flu vaccine (which is widely acknowledged as being about 25% effective).
Therefore, let us kill this child over a religious objection to a vaccine that is effective less than 25% of the time.
Kind-hearted people are we...
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, let us kill this child over a religious objection to a vaccine that is effective less than 25% of the time.
Kind-hearted people are we...
Not really, it would be unfair to give the heart to someone when there are others who have followed the rules AND (bluntly) have a better chance at living. There's 1 heart available and 100 people who need it, this seems to be a normal approach for organ transplant lists (compatibility matches and health optimization) at least as far as I'm aware.
And again, I am truly not directly judging what the mother heard from the Holy Spirit, but essentially she has the decision of whether to: A) give her child a vaccine (to protect her health) and the chance at a heart, or B) have neither. It's hard to accept that she is being told by the Holy Spirit to pick Option B.
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@Axtremus said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Not if the mother has a religious objection.
The mother can die on her chosen cross if she wishes. But don't take the child with her. It's just not good parenting.
And what do you know about parenting?
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
@Axtremus said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Not if the mother has a religious objection.
The mother can die on her chosen cross if she wishes. But don't take the child with her. It's just not good parenting.
And what do you know about parenting?
There you go again, Beauregard. I am sure Ax knows every bit as much about being a responsible parent as do you. Moreover I am certain he is a good parent. So lay off him and for once quit with your distractors when you find yourself dug into a hole or called to account.
In the case of this child, the mother’s religious convictions over a vaccine are obstructing her child from receiving a heart transplant. I can think of no impediment in the mainstream Christian tradition that would forbid someone from receiving a vaccine of any sort.
In my view the mother’s opposition to the vaccine is based entirely on her misinformed belief in disinformation and conspiracy theory nonsense. She is hiding behind her religion and not at all adhering to it. Her objection on a religious ground is a false pretence.
If anything she is plain and simple guilty of reckless endangerment of her daughter.
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@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
@Axtremus said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Not if the mother has a religious objection.
The mother can die on her chosen cross if she wishes. But don't take the child with her. It's just not good parenting.
And what do you know about parenting?
There you go again, Beauregard. I am sure Ax knows every bit as much about being a responsible parent as do you. Moreover I am certain he is a good parent. So lay off him and for once quit with your distractors when you find yourself dug into a hole or called to account.
In the case of this child, the mother’s religious convictions over a vaccine are obstructing her child from receiving a heart transplant. I can think of no impediment in the mainstream Christian tradition that would forbid someone from receiving a vaccine of any sort.
In my view the mother’s opposition to the vaccine is based entirely on her misinformed belief in disinformation and conspiracy theory nonsense. She is hiding behind her religion and not at all adhering to it. Her objection on a religious ground is a false pretence.
If anything she is plain and simple guilty of reckless endangerment of her daughter.
@Renauda said in Well, die then.:
In my view the mother’s opposition to the vaccine is based entirely on her misinformed belief in disinformation and conspiracy theory nonsense. She is hiding behind her religion and not at all adhering to it. Her objection on a religious ground is a false pretence.
Yeah she says it was the Holy Spirit telling her not to give her kid a vaccine. But I wonder if that was after she was perusing Facebook.
If anything she is plain and simple guilty of reckless endangerment of her daughter.
Agreed.
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@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, let us kill this child over a religious objection to a vaccine that is effective less than 25% of the time.
Kind-hearted people are we...
Not really, it would be unfair to give the heart to someone when there are others who have followed the rules AND (bluntly) have a better chance at living. There's 1 heart available and 100 people who need it, this seems to be a normal approach for organ transplant lists (compatibility matches and health optimization) at least as far as I'm aware.
And again, I am truly not directly judging what the mother heard from the Holy Spirit, but essentially she has the decision of whether to: A) give her child a vaccine (to protect her health) and the chance at a heart, or B) have neither. It's hard to accept that she is being told by the Holy Spirit to pick Option B.
@89th said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, let us kill this child over a religious objection to a vaccine that is effective less than 25% of the time.
Kind-hearted people are we...
Not really, it would be unfair to give the heart to someone when there are others who have followed the rules AND (bluntly) have a better chance at living. There's 1 heart available and 100 people who need it, this seems to be a normal approach for organ transplant lists (compatibility matches and health optimization) at least as far as I'm aware.
And again, I am truly not directly judging what the mother heard from the Holy Spirit, but essentially she has the decision of whether to: A) give her child a vaccine (to protect her health) and the chance at a heart, or B) have neither. It's hard to accept that she is being told by the Holy Spirit to pick Option B.
Hearts are not plug-n-play. They have to be matched and they have a short shelf life.
Want me to tell you a dirty little secret? Over half of all donor hearts are trashed.
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@Renauda said in Well, die then.:
In my view the mother’s opposition to the vaccine is based entirely on her misinformed belief in disinformation and conspiracy theory nonsense. She is hiding behind her religion and not at all adhering to it. Her objection on a religious ground is a false pretence.
Yeah she says it was the Holy Spirit telling her not to give her kid a vaccine. But I wonder if that was after she was perusing Facebook.
If anything she is plain and simple guilty of reckless endangerment of her daughter.
Agreed.
@89th said in Well, die then.:
@Renauda said in Well, die then.:
In my view the mother’s opposition to the vaccine is based entirely on her misinformed belief in disinformation and conspiracy theory nonsense. She is hiding behind her religion and not at all adhering to it. Her objection on a religious ground is a false pretence.
Yeah she says it was the Holy Spirit telling her not to give her kid a vaccine. But I wonder if that was after she was perusing Facebook.
If anything she is plain and simple guilty of reckless endangerment of her daughter.
Agreed.
You do not believe in the Holy Spirit?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@Renauda said in Well, die then.:
In my view the mother’s opposition to the vaccine is based entirely on her misinformed belief in disinformation and conspiracy theory nonsense. She is hiding behind her religion and not at all adhering to it. Her objection on a religious ground is a false pretence.
Yeah she says it was the Holy Spirit telling her not to give her kid a vaccine. But I wonder if that was after she was perusing Facebook.
If anything she is plain and simple guilty of reckless endangerment of her daughter.
Agreed.
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@Axtremus said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, point your finger at this child and tell her to die.
The solution is simple and readily available: just vaccinate the child already.
Not if the mother has a religious objection.
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
@Axtremus said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, point your finger at this child and tell her to die.
The solution is simple and readily available: just vaccinate the child already.
Not if the mother has a religious objection.
In this case, isn't it also the mother telling the child to die?
Or maybe we should blame the Holy Spirit.
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@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
@Axtremus said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, point your finger at this child and tell her to die.
The solution is simple and readily available: just vaccinate the child already.
Not if the mother has a religious objection.
In this case, isn't it also the mother telling the child to die?
Or maybe we should blame the Holy Spirit.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
@Axtremus said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, point your finger at this child and tell her to die.
The solution is simple and readily available: just vaccinate the child already.
Not if the mother has a religious objection.
In this case, isn't it also the mother telling the child to die?
Or maybe we should blame the Holy Spirit.
Why? Because the mother doesn't want the child to take the COVID vaccine? The same vaccine that LE and the military no longer has to take?
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@89th said in Well, die then.:
@Renauda said in Well, die then.:
In my view the mother’s opposition to the vaccine is based entirely on her misinformed belief in disinformation and conspiracy theory nonsense. She is hiding behind her religion and not at all adhering to it. Her objection on a religious ground is a false pretence.
Yeah she says it was the Holy Spirit telling her not to give her kid a vaccine. But I wonder if that was after she was perusing Facebook.
If anything she is plain and simple guilty of reckless endangerment of her daughter.
Agreed.
You do not believe in the Holy Spirit?
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
@89th said in Well, die then.:
@Renauda said in Well, die then.:
In my view the mother’s opposition to the vaccine is based entirely on her misinformed belief in disinformation and conspiracy theory nonsense. She is hiding behind her religion and not at all adhering to it. Her objection on a religious ground is a false pretence.
Yeah she says it was the Holy Spirit telling her not to give her kid a vaccine. But I wonder if that was after she was perusing Facebook.
If anything she is plain and simple guilty of reckless endangerment of her daughter.
Agreed.
You do not believe in the Holy Spirit?
Tricky waters. Of course I believe in the Holy Spirit. But I also roll my eyes when my mom says she's going to pray for something to happen (within her control) when God gave her the brains and hands to make it happen. I think we can both agree there are strong odds that what she thinks she heard from the Holy Spirit was an echo of what she was reading on the internet.
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One of my engineers said he didn't want to get vaccinated for religious reasons. He caved in at the last minute, and will now presumably burn in hell for all eternity. He sure put me through enough of it.
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In any case, it is ultimately the mother's choice. If she feels that it is more important that her daughter not have a COVID vaccine, rather than get a new heart, the next child in line that gets that heart will thank her.
Part of living in a civilized society is that there are rules. I am not agree with all of them, but I understand that "most" rules are there for a reason.
It may be against my religion to follow speed limits as god wants me to be free and not constrained by earthly limits. But, I also understand that there may be consequences to following my religious rule vs. societies rule. And I may have to compromise or accept the consequences.
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There is no next child in line, per se.
Either a heart matches or it does not.
Therefore, I can only surmise your principles demand that we throw a good heart in the gut bucket.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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There is no next child in line, per se.
Either a heart matches or it does not.
Therefore, I can only surmise your principles demand that we throw a good heart in the gut bucket.
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, I can only surmise your principles demand that we throw a good heart in the gut bucket.
It's actually the mother's principles that are dictating that.
You're saying there's no logic behind the medical decision, but you have no problem defending the woman who's essentially saying the voices in her head told her not to get her compromised child vaccinated.
And I don't necessarily agree with the medics, but I sure as shit think the mother is flat out wrong.
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@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, I can only surmise your principles demand that we throw a good heart in the gut bucket.
It's actually the mother's principles that are dictating that.
You're saying there's no logic behind the medical decision, but you have no problem defending the woman who's essentially saying the voices in her head told her not to get her compromised child vaccinated.
And I don't necessarily agree with the medics, but I sure as shit think the mother is flat out wrong.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, I can only surmise your principles demand that we throw a good heart in the gut bucket.
It's actually the mother's principles that are dictating that.
You're saying there's no logic behind the medical decision, but you have no problem defending the woman who's essentially saying the voices in her head told her not to get vaccinated.
And I don't necessarily agree with the medics, but I sure as shit think the mother is flat out wrong.
Not hers. Yours.
You are demanding that the child receive a treatment with maybe a 25% (and dropping) success rate or you will deny her child a 50% chance of living at least another ten years.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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A lot of rapists and murderers have said they heard voices telling them to do what they did.
The alleged imaginary whispers of some holy spirit forbidding a vaccine do not stand scrutiny under any circumstance.
It’s either superstition or mental illness. Possibly a pathological combination of both. Take your pick.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, I can only surmise your principles demand that we throw a good heart in the gut bucket.
It's actually the mother's principles that are dictating that.
You're saying there's no logic behind the medical decision, but you have no problem defending the woman who's essentially saying the voices in her head told her not to get vaccinated.
And I don't necessarily agree with the medics, but I sure as shit think the mother is flat out wrong.
Not hers. Yours.
You are demanding that the child receive a treatment with maybe a 25% (and dropping) success rate or you will deny her child a 50% chance of living at least another ten years.
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Well, die then.:
@Jolly said in Well, die then.:
Therefore, I can only surmise your principles demand that we throw a good heart in the gut bucket.
It's actually the mother's principles that are dictating that.
You're saying there's no logic behind the medical decision, but you have no problem defending the woman who's essentially saying the voices in her head told her not to get vaccinated.
And I don't necessarily agree with the medics, but I sure as shit think the mother is flat out wrong.
Not hers. Yours.
You are demanding that the child receive a treatment with maybe a 25% (and dropping) success rate or you will deny her child a 50% chance of living at least another ten years.
You didn't read what I said. I said I don't necessarily agree with the medics.
And I'm not demanding anything. I'm commenting on a news story.
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And let me tell you something else, sister... I've been a white coat for over 40 years. Hospital staff works on a shitload of patients that may not make it or are a waste of resources.
Just last Sunday, my little part of the world pulled out all the stops to save a 62 year-old alky with seizures, most likely due to her 328 blood ETOH. I know it was 328, because I ran it diluted vs. undiluted and took the average, since the diluted result was within the AMR.
By your thinking, maybe we should have parked the gurney in the parking lot and let nature take it's course.
After all, we can make our treatment rules, can't we?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
