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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. A Letter on Justice and Open Debate

A Letter on Justice and Open Debate

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  • Doctor PhibesD Offline
    Doctor PhibesD Offline
    Doctor Phibes
    wrote on last edited by
    #41

    The apparent lack of any conception of irony when it comes to free speech is nothing new.

    I was only joking

    1 Reply Last reply
    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

      Without Rowling the trans folks would have freaked out about Jesse Signal but not as much.

      But had neither of them been there you might have heard some complaints about blacks on the list that don’t toe the woke line. In fact I’ve seen some of that but the trans women are more aggressive per Horace’s point.

      CopperC Offline
      CopperC Offline
      Copper
      wrote on last edited by
      #42

      @jon-nyc said in A Letter on Justice and Open Debate:

      trans women

      When you say "trans women", does that refer to the origin or destination gender? Women who pretend to be men or men who pretend to be women?

      1 Reply Last reply
      • jon-nycJ Offline
        jon-nycJ Offline
        jon-nyc
        wrote on last edited by
        #43

        Men who want to be thought of and seen as women.

        It took me a while too to get them, er, straight.

        Only non-witches get due process.

        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
        1 Reply Last reply
        • LuFins DadL Offline
          LuFins DadL Offline
          LuFins Dad
          wrote on last edited by
          #44

          I'm so old, I remember when our identities weren't supposed to be based on our gender.

          The Brad

          George KG 1 Reply Last reply
          • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

            I'm so old, I remember when our identities weren't supposed to be based on our gender.

            George KG Offline
            George KG Offline
            George K
            wrote on last edited by
            #45

            @jon-nyc said in A Letter on Justice and Open Debate:

            Men who want to be thought of and seen as women.

            It took me a while too to get them, er, straight.

            What a queer thing to say....

            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • jon-nycJ Offline
              jon-nycJ Offline
              jon-nyc
              wrote on last edited by
              #46

              Only non-witches get due process.

              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
              1 Reply Last reply
              • jon-nycJ Offline
                jon-nycJ Offline
                jon-nyc
                wrote on last edited by
                #47

                Chomsky on the reaction the letter has generated.

                7EAAFB8F-72D1-4E9F-898E-91E980312A0C.png

                Only non-witches get due process.

                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                1 Reply Last reply
                • HoraceH Offline
                  HoraceH Offline
                  Horace
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #48

                  Yes it's well known that cancel culture is already a powerful force in our most important institutions. It's nice to see this data. It will be disgusting to watch the Ezra Kleins of the world continue to deny its existence.

                  Rogan had on recently the guy who wrote the nonsensical -studies papers that got accepted and published. He said that the last time a feminist studies (or any -studies) academic paper got seriously peer reviewed was in the 90s.

                  Education is extremely important.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #49

                    Yeah. James Lindsey. I preordered his book.

                    Only non-witches get due process.

                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • HoraceH Offline
                      HoraceH Offline
                      Horace
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #50

                      I listened to Klein's podcast about this. He discussed it with Yascha Mounk, who was on the free speech side of the debate. It really did come down to Ezra just saying that while he understands why free speech is important, trans people's feelings have to be taken into account and if free speech can hurt them, then free speech needs to be reconsidered. If asked to reflect on that trade-off, he would just dig deeper into how important the feelings of trans people are, and how they face legitimate danger every day, because people want to murder them.

                      It's clear that those sorts of arguments can be used eternally by those who have an interest, based on the power dynamics as they see them, in shutting down free speech. If it's not trans folk it'll be some other group. It does not appear to matter how large the group is.

                      One thing Klein and Mounk agreed on was that the White Fragility book was bad. Klein thought it made some good points though. They mentioned something that I've noticed, too. That "white supremacists" share common beliefs with the ideas in that book - that white people are different and privileged. It's just that one group feels pride about it, and the other group feels shame.

                      Education is extremely important.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • jon-nycJ Offline
                        jon-nycJ Offline
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #51

                        I’m surprised Klein conceded that much about the book.

                        Look for McWhorter’s review in the Atlantic.

                        Only non-witches get due process.

                        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • HoraceH Offline
                          HoraceH Offline
                          Horace
                          wrote on last edited by Horace
                          #52

                          Yglesias had McWhorter on his podcast today. Good discussion. Oh, the cognitive dissonance that must be managed by high status progressives when they listen to a guy like McWhorter.

                          Just kidding, I know they'd never listen to a guy like McWhorter.

                          Education is extremely important.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • jon-nycJ Offline
                            jon-nycJ Offline
                            jon-nyc
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #53

                            Seek out McWhorter’s last visit to Glen Loury’s podcast, maybe a week ago. (He’s on regularly)

                            How did Yglesias react to him?

                            Only non-witches get due process.

                            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • HoraceH Offline
                              HoraceH Offline
                              Horace
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #54

                              They never disagreed much. Yglesias is attempting to publicly embrace being not-totally-woke. He commented a couple times in the interview that the stuff they were discussing would seem heretical to many of his friends. I think like a lot of people on the left who are capable of doing some thinking, he thinks the direction is good and justifies a ton of disingenuousness in messaging to that end. But he's smart enough to know how absurd some of it is getting and has chosen not to consider all the opposition evil.

                              McWhorter enjoys a privilege of being taken seriously thinking what he thinks and saying what he says. Identical thoughts and words from a person with the wrong skin color would not make it onto Yglesias' show. (Of course.)

                              Education is extremely important.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • jon-nycJ Offline
                                jon-nycJ Offline
                                jon-nyc
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #55

                                What’s the name of the podcast?

                                Only non-witches get due process.

                                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • HoraceH Offline
                                  HoraceH Offline
                                  Horace
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #56

                                  It's a Vox podcast called The Weeds.

                                  Education is extremely important.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • jon-nycJ Offline
                                    jon-nycJ Offline
                                    jon-nyc
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #57

                                    Thanks

                                    Only non-witches get due process.

                                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • jon-nycJ Offline
                                      jon-nycJ Offline
                                      jon-nyc
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #58

                                      Listened to the first 50m or so this morning on my walk.

                                      My first thought was Yglesias really has a voice for blogging....

                                      Also McWhorter is good at changing his tone and style for his audience. He comes off differently with Loury.

                                      Only non-witches get due process.

                                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • jon-nycJ Offline
                                        jon-nycJ Offline
                                        jon-nyc
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #59

                                        And now Yglesias is out.

                                        Only non-witches get due process.

                                        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                          Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                          Aqua Letifer
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #60

                                          Not too surprising. I wonder to what extent the left will separate itself from the far left in the coming months and year.

                                          Please love yourself.

                                          L 1 Reply Last reply
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