Skip to content
  • Categories
  • Recent
  • Tags
  • Popular
  • Users
  • Groups
Skins
  • Light
  • Cerulean
  • Cosmo
  • Flatly
  • Journal
  • Litera
  • Lumen
  • Lux
  • Materia
  • Minty
  • Morph
  • Pulse
  • Sandstone
  • Simplex
  • Sketchy
  • Spacelab
  • United
  • Yeti
  • Zephyr
  • Dark
  • Cyborg
  • Darkly
  • Quartz
  • Slate
  • Solar
  • Superhero
  • Vapor

  • Default (No Skin)
  • No Skin
Collapse

The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. A Letter on Justice and Open Debate

A Letter on Justice and Open Debate

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General Discussion
64 Posts 12 Posters 1.2k Views
  • Oldest to Newest
  • Newest to Oldest
  • Most Votes
Reply
  • Reply as topic
Log in to reply
This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
  • jon-nycJ Online
    jon-nycJ Online
    jon-nyc
    wrote on last edited by
    #32

    Great piece in NRO on Matt Yglesias.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/07/its-come-to-this-we-must-defend-matt-yglesias/?utm_source=recirc-mobile&utm_medium=blog&utm_campaign=river&utm_content=top-stories&utm_term=fourth

    Only non-witches get due process.

    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
    1 Reply Last reply
    • HoraceH Online
      HoraceH Online
      Horace
      wrote on last edited by
      #33

      Klein will hate that response. He has a keen nose for power grabs and to be seen to be kind and magnanimous has good messaging power. If he addresses it, he will frame it as a cynical ploy by NRO to capture the high ground.

      Education is extremely important.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • L Offline
        L Offline
        Loki
        wrote on last edited by
        #34

        Just so I am clear if J.K.Rowling had not signed this it would be no big deal?

        1 Reply Last reply
        • Doctor PhibesD Offline
          Doctor PhibesD Offline
          Doctor Phibes
          wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
          #35

          "the weaponization of victim status by vindictive, sophomoric busybodies who cannot bear the fact that someone else sees the world in a different way"

          Nicely put

          I was only joking

          1 Reply Last reply
          • LuFins DadL Offline
            LuFins DadL Offline
            LuFins Dad
            wrote on last edited by
            #36

            As far as I can tell, Rowling’s big sin is feeling that guys that biological males that identify as females should not be included in the rewards that feminism has won for women. And for this, her legacy is ruined.

            The Brad

            1 Reply Last reply
            • Doctor PhibesD Offline
              Doctor PhibesD Offline
              Doctor Phibes
              wrote on last edited by
              #37

              She's also managed to elevate herself to being discussed alongside Salman Rushdie, which was no mean feat.

              I was only joking

              1 Reply Last reply
              • HoraceH Online
                HoraceH Online
                Horace
                wrote on last edited by Horace
                #38

                I imagine trans folk are fierce and fearless combatants. They've already established that they're willing to self-mutilate to solve their emotional problems. Just what sort of clear headed response and self control do you suppose they'll have in the culture wars, which they now see as an extension of their life long psychological pain?

                Education is extremely important.

                1 Reply Last reply
                • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                  Doctor PhibesD Offline
                  Doctor Phibes
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #39

                  The real problem in this debate is that everybody takes everything so personally. And that includes Rowling.

                  I was only joking

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • jon-nycJ Online
                    jon-nycJ Online
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #40

                    Without Rowling the trans folks would have freaked out about Jesse Signal but not as much.

                    But had neither of them been there you might have heard some complaints about blacks on the list that don’t toe the woke line. In fact I’ve seen some of that but the trans women are more aggressive per Horace’s point.

                    Only non-witches get due process.

                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                    CopperC 1 Reply Last reply
                    • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                      Doctor PhibesD Offline
                      Doctor Phibes
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #41

                      The apparent lack of any conception of irony when it comes to free speech is nothing new.

                      I was only joking

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                        Without Rowling the trans folks would have freaked out about Jesse Signal but not as much.

                        But had neither of them been there you might have heard some complaints about blacks on the list that don’t toe the woke line. In fact I’ve seen some of that but the trans women are more aggressive per Horace’s point.

                        CopperC Offline
                        CopperC Offline
                        Copper
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #42

                        @jon-nyc said in A Letter on Justice and Open Debate:

                        trans women

                        When you say "trans women", does that refer to the origin or destination gender? Women who pretend to be men or men who pretend to be women?

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ Online
                          jon-nycJ Online
                          jon-nyc
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #43

                          Men who want to be thought of and seen as women.

                          It took me a while too to get them, er, straight.

                          Only non-witches get due process.

                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • LuFins DadL Offline
                            LuFins DadL Offline
                            LuFins Dad
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #44

                            I'm so old, I remember when our identities weren't supposed to be based on our gender.

                            The Brad

                            George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                            • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                              I'm so old, I remember when our identities weren't supposed to be based on our gender.

                              George KG Offline
                              George KG Offline
                              George K
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #45

                              @jon-nyc said in A Letter on Justice and Open Debate:

                              Men who want to be thought of and seen as women.

                              It took me a while too to get them, er, straight.

                              What a queer thing to say....

                              "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                              The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • jon-nycJ Online
                                jon-nycJ Online
                                jon-nyc
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #46

                                Only non-witches get due process.

                                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • jon-nycJ Online
                                  jon-nycJ Online
                                  jon-nyc
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #47

                                  Chomsky on the reaction the letter has generated.

                                  7EAAFB8F-72D1-4E9F-898E-91E980312A0C.png

                                  Only non-witches get due process.

                                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • HoraceH Online
                                    HoraceH Online
                                    Horace
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #48

                                    Yes it's well known that cancel culture is already a powerful force in our most important institutions. It's nice to see this data. It will be disgusting to watch the Ezra Kleins of the world continue to deny its existence.

                                    Rogan had on recently the guy who wrote the nonsensical -studies papers that got accepted and published. He said that the last time a feminist studies (or any -studies) academic paper got seriously peer reviewed was in the 90s.

                                    Education is extremely important.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • jon-nycJ Online
                                      jon-nycJ Online
                                      jon-nyc
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #49

                                      Yeah. James Lindsey. I preordered his book.

                                      Only non-witches get due process.

                                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • HoraceH Online
                                        HoraceH Online
                                        Horace
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #50

                                        I listened to Klein's podcast about this. He discussed it with Yascha Mounk, who was on the free speech side of the debate. It really did come down to Ezra just saying that while he understands why free speech is important, trans people's feelings have to be taken into account and if free speech can hurt them, then free speech needs to be reconsidered. If asked to reflect on that trade-off, he would just dig deeper into how important the feelings of trans people are, and how they face legitimate danger every day, because people want to murder them.

                                        It's clear that those sorts of arguments can be used eternally by those who have an interest, based on the power dynamics as they see them, in shutting down free speech. If it's not trans folk it'll be some other group. It does not appear to matter how large the group is.

                                        One thing Klein and Mounk agreed on was that the White Fragility book was bad. Klein thought it made some good points though. They mentioned something that I've noticed, too. That "white supremacists" share common beliefs with the ideas in that book - that white people are different and privileged. It's just that one group feels pride about it, and the other group feels shame.

                                        Education is extremely important.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • jon-nycJ Online
                                          jon-nycJ Online
                                          jon-nyc
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #51

                                          I’m surprised Klein conceded that much about the book.

                                          Look for McWhorter’s review in the Atlantic.

                                          Only non-witches get due process.

                                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                          1 Reply Last reply
                                          Reply
                                          • Reply as topic
                                          Log in to reply
                                          • Oldest to Newest
                                          • Newest to Oldest
                                          • Most Votes


                                          • Login

                                          • Don't have an account? Register

                                          • Login or register to search.
                                          • First post
                                            Last post
                                          0
                                          • Categories
                                          • Recent
                                          • Tags
                                          • Popular
                                          • Users
                                          • Groups