Meanwhile, at Harvard...
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Jolly - I’m curious what you think, as someone who has repeatedly called for genocide against Gazans. Do you agree with FIRE here? Or do you envision some rule that allows such calls against some people but not others?
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.
Who do you want to decide where that line is?
Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?
I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.
Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.
This is just the first time I’ve seen the board coalesce around speech restrictions. I don’t believe it’s happened before.
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@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.
Who do you want to decide where that line is?
Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?
I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.
You were happily giggling away at "bad free speech takes" recently. Such giggling was an entrenched mainstream center left perspective, before Oct 7, that people who talked about free speech were right wing wackos.
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Certainly not. Perhaps the people with the shitty 1st amendment that I posted takes just happened to be on the right.
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@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.
Who do you want to decide where that line is?
Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?
I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.
Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.
This is just the first time I’ve seen the board coalesce around speech restrictions. I don’t believe it’s happened before.
The agreement you're noticing is around double standards and the practicalities of making them more fair.
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If it were that I’d chime in. See Philip Lemoine’s comments which we discussed.
At the end of the day, the university presidents communicated the view that is consistent with the first amendment. Speech is not per se harassment or bullying. It does in fact depend on context.
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@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Certainly not. Perhaps the people with the shitty 1st amendment that I posted takes just happened to be on the right.
I can browse twitter, er X. That giggling about bad free speech takes an was entrenched mainstream center left meme, as they continued to marginalize anybody who sniffs of being on the right.
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You do that if you want. Just don’t try to pin it on me.
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@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
If it were that I’d chime in. See Philip Lemoine’s comments which we discussed.
At the end of the day, the university presidents communicated the view that is consistent with the first amendment. Speech is not per se harassment or bullying. It does in fact depend on context.
They weren't asked about the first amendment, they were asked about university policy.
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@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.
Who do you want to decide where that line is?
Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?
I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.
Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.
This is just the first time I’ve seen the board coalesce around speech restrictions. I don’t believe it’s happened before.
Gotcha. For me it's potentially different. This isn't some low-EQ sales guy who ignores a pronoun and gets fired for it.
In some of these incidents, you have a group of people in which "raising awareness" is a fucking joke. Intimidating jews is obviously their goal, and they hide behind free speech and their numbers in order to threaten. That's no longer free speech.
In other cases, sure. The "Free Palestine" stuff is silly but fine.
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@Horace said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
If it were that I’d chime in. See Philip Lemoine’s comments which we discussed.
At the end of the day, the university presidents communicated the view that is consistent with the first amendment. Speech is not per se harassment or bullying. It does in fact depend on context.
They weren't asked about the first amendment, they were asked about university policy.
They were asked about “harassment and bullying” policies in the viral clip.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.
Who do you want to decide where that line is?
Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?
I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.
Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.
This is just the first time I’ve seen the board coalesce around speech restrictions. I don’t believe it’s happened before.
Gotcha. For me it's potentially different. This isn't some low-EQ sales guy who ignores a pronoun and gets fired for it.
In some of these incidents, you have a group of people in which "raising awareness" is a fucking joke. Intimidating jews is obviously their goal, and they hide behind free speech and their numbers in order to threaten. That's no longer free speech.
In other cases, sure. The "Free Palestine" stuff is silly but fine.
But isn’t that really what we’re talking about here? The literal call for genocide everyone repeats was in Australia. Here it’s ’globalize the intifada’ and ‘from the river to the sea’.
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@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Horace said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
If it were that I’d chime in. See Philip Lemoine’s comments which we discussed.
At the end of the day, the university presidents communicated the view that is consistent with the first amendment. Speech is not per se harassment or bullying. It does in fact depend on context.
They weren't asked about the first amendment, they were asked about university policy.
They were asked about “harassment and bullying” policies in the viral clip.
Then you claimed that made everything clear and obvious and logically definitional, then I proposed four simple scenarios for speech, to allow you to apply the clear definitions, then you punted.
Here they are again:
- Kill all Jews
- Kill all Jews on campus
- Kill all Jews in the campus Zionist club
- Kill Joe the Jew
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@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.
Who do you want to decide where that line is?
Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?
I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.
Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.
This is just the first time I’ve seen the board coalesce around speech restrictions. I don’t believe it’s happened before.
Gotcha. For me it's potentially different. This isn't some low-EQ sales guy who ignores a pronoun and gets fired for it.
In some of these incidents, you have a group of people in which "raising awareness" is a fucking joke. Intimidating jews is obviously their goal, and they hide behind free speech and their numbers in order to threaten. That's no longer free speech.
In other cases, sure. The "Free Palestine" stuff is silly but fine.
But isn’t that really what we’re talking about here? The literal call for genocide everyone repeats was in Australia. Here it’s ’globalize the intifada’ and ‘from the river to the sea’.
The question was posed as a thought experiment. The question was whether a literal call for genocide is allowable under university policy regarding harassment.
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@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.
Who do you want to decide where that line is?
Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?
I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.
Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.
This is just the first time I’ve seen the board coalesce around speech restrictions. I don’t believe it’s happened before.
Gotcha. For me it's potentially different. This isn't some low-EQ sales guy who ignores a pronoun and gets fired for it.
In some of these incidents, you have a group of people in which "raising awareness" is a fucking joke. Intimidating jews is obviously their goal, and they hide behind free speech and their numbers in order to threaten. That's no longer free speech.
In other cases, sure. The "Free Palestine" stuff is silly but fine.
But isn’t that really what we’re talking about here? The call for genocide everyone repeats was in Australia. Here it’s ’globalize the intifada’ and ‘from the river to the sea’.
It's not the words, it's the intent. If you can somehow prove to me that the mobs in MIT and Harvard were merely trying to express their opinion, and raise awareness about an important issue, then sure, fine. But they were doing a shitload more than that.
At Harvard, they literally boxed in Jewish students and wouldn't let them leave. It's ridiculous to call this free speech.
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@Horace , I didn’t punt so much as point out it was irrelevant to the conversation about the lemoine post.
But to the question I would imagine that a general policy drawing the line between 1 and 2 would survive any first amendment challenge, but even that line is context dependent. In the right context all four could be prohibited consistent with the 1st amendment.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
It's not the words, it's the intent. If you can somehow prove to me that the mobs in MIT and Harvard were merely trying to express their opinion, and raise awareness about an important issue, then sure, fine. But they were doing a shitload more than that.
Right. Congratulations - to the Presidents’ point, you just added context!
At Harvard, they literally boxed in Jewish students and wouldn't let them leave. It's ridiculous to call this free speech.
Right, and Stefanik didn’t ask about this and I have little doubt the administrators would have said such actions are clear violations of many policies and perhaps state laws.
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@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.
And some will say that burning a cross on your front lawn is protected speech.
So, yeah, where's the line?
The ‘on your front lawn’ part makes it with the intent to intimidate. “Death to Jews” on a sign in front of the synagogue will cross well established first amendment lines.
Remind me to tell Justice Kavanaugh that...
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@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
I didn’t ignore it so much as point out it was irrelevant to the conversation about the lemoine post.
But to the question I would imagine that a general policy drawing the line between 1 and 2 would survive any first amendment challenge, but even that line is context dependent. In the right context all four could be prohibited consistent with the 1st amendment.
You keep going back to the first amendment, when the question is explicitly about university policy. That's exactly what got people giggled at a few months ago, when it so happens that it was the right, rather than the mainstream center left, that was doing it. It's known as a "bad free speech take".
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@jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:
It's not the words, it's the intent. If you can somehow prove to me that the mobs in MIT and Harvard were merely trying to express their opinion, and raise awareness about an important issue, then sure, fine. But they were doing a shitload more than that.
Right. Congratulations - to the Presidents’ point, you just added context!
No, she said "it depends on the context."
She did not but should have said, "absolutely not in this particular context."
