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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Meanwhile, at Harvard...

Meanwhile, at Harvard...

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  • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

    Good for them.

    Aqua LetiferA Offline
    Aqua LetiferA Offline
    Aqua Letifer
    wrote on last edited by
    #178

    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

    Good for them.

    In this fraught moment, colleges and universities must ensure student safety and well-being by taking action against violence, true threats, incitement, discriminatory harassment, and other unlawful activity.

    I would say that line is particularly fuzzy in these circumstances.

    Please love yourself.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • jon-nycJ Offline
      jon-nycJ Offline
      jon-nyc
      wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
      #179

      Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

      Who do you want to decide where that line is?

      Perhaps more importantly, who do you think will get to decide if we let it be drawn?

      Only non-witches get due process.

      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
      George KG Aqua LetiferA 2 Replies Last reply
      • HoraceH Offline
        HoraceH Offline
        Horace
        wrote on last edited by
        #180

        FIRE is of course right in its directional principles. It's just unclear whether this discussion leads towards, or away from, a single coherent standard of allowable free expression on campus.

        I think we were all getting used to the microaggression stuff being condemned, and now we're being asked to think clearly, because of course, thinking clearly is what people do. Left unsaid is that thinking clearly is what people do when the left's free expression is impinged upon. If it's the right being contained, then a handy moral panic will do for justification. Let's not be hasty with all the thinking, as long as a moral panic is sufficient to guide the history we want to be on the right side of.

        I know the principled people are reveling in their principles, but if there's no clear future where those principles are applied fairly, then the principles are not the only important part of the discussion. We need to consider the people who will be applying those principles.

        Education is extremely important.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

          Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

          Who do you want to decide where that line is?

          Perhaps more importantly, who do you think will get to decide if we let it be drawn?

          George KG Offline
          George KG Offline
          George K
          wrote on last edited by
          #181

          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

          Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

          And some will say that burning a cross on your front lawn is protected speech.

          So, yeah, where's the line?

          "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

          The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

          HoraceH jon-nycJ 2 Replies Last reply
          • George KG George K

            @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

            Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

            And some will say that burning a cross on your front lawn is protected speech.

            So, yeah, where's the line?

            HoraceH Offline
            HoraceH Offline
            Horace
            wrote on last edited by
            #182

            @George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

            @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

            Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

            And some will say that burning a cross on your front lawn is protected speech.

            So, yeah, where's the line?

            Somewhere after microaggressions, might be the most common denominator.

            Education is extremely important.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

              Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

              Who do you want to decide where that line is?

              Perhaps more importantly, who do you think will get to decide if we let it be drawn?

              Aqua LetiferA Offline
              Aqua LetiferA Offline
              Aqua Letifer
              wrote on last edited by Aqua Letifer
              #183

              @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

              Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

              Who do you want to decide where that line is?

              Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

              Perhaps more importantly, who do you think will get to decide if we let it be drawn?

              Again, that's already happened, so we already know the answer to that question. In the past 20 years we've done and codified exactly the thing you say is at stake here. At universities, in online kangaroo courts, in every HR department in America. The answers to your questions are all behind you.

              Please love yourself.

              HoraceH jon-nycJ 2 Replies Last reply
              • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                Perhaps more importantly, who do you think will get to decide if we let it be drawn?

                Again, that's already happened, so we already know the answer to that question. In the past 20 years we've done and codified exactly the thing you say is at stake here. At universities, in online kangaroo courts, in every HR department in America. The answers to your questions are all behind you.

                HoraceH Offline
                HoraceH Offline
                Horace
                wrote on last edited by
                #184

                @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                Perhaps more importantly, who do you think will get to decide if we let it be drawn?

                Again, that's already happened, so we already know the answer to that question. In the past 20 years we've done and codified exactly the thing you say is at stake here. At universities, in online kangaroo courts, in every HR department in America. The answers to your questions are all behind you.

                Yep. FIRE was always here doing the ACLU's job for it. Only now is FIRE a thing anybody is talking about.

                Education is extremely important.

                1 Reply Last reply
                • George KG George K

                  @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                  Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                  And some will say that burning a cross on your front lawn is protected speech.

                  So, yeah, where's the line?

                  jon-nycJ Offline
                  jon-nycJ Offline
                  jon-nyc
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #185

                  @George-K said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                  @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                  Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                  And some will say that burning a cross on your front lawn is protected speech.

                  So, yeah, where's the line?

                  The ‘on your front lawn’ part makes it with the intent to intimidate. “Death to Jews” on a sign in front of the synagogue will cross well established first amendment lines.

                  Only non-witches get due process.

                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                  JollyJ George KG 2 Replies Last reply
                  • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                    Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                    Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                    Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                    Perhaps more importantly, who do you think will get to decide if we let it be drawn?

                    Again, that's already happened, so we already know the answer to that question. In the past 20 years we've done and codified exactly the thing you say is at stake here. At universities, in online kangaroo courts, in every HR department in America. The answers to your questions are all behind you.

                    jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #186

                    @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                    Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                    Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                    Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                    I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.

                    Only non-witches get due process.

                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                    Aqua LetiferA HoraceH 2 Replies Last reply
                    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                      Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                      Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                      I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.

                      Aqua LetiferA Offline
                      Aqua LetiferA Offline
                      Aqua Letifer
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #187

                      @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                      Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                      Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                      Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                      I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.

                      Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.

                      Please love yourself.

                      jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                      • jon-nycJ Offline
                        jon-nycJ Offline
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #188

                        Jolly - I’m curious what you think, as someone who has repeatedly called for genocide against Gazans. Do you agree with FIRE here? Or do you envision some rule that allows such calls against some people but not others?

                        Only non-witches get due process.

                        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                          Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                          Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                          I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.

                          Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.

                          jon-nycJ Offline
                          jon-nycJ Offline
                          jon-nyc
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #189

                          @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                          Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                          Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                          Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                          I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.

                          Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.

                          This is just the first time I’ve seen the board coalesce around speech restrictions. I don’t believe it’s happened before.

                          Only non-witches get due process.

                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                          HoraceH Aqua LetiferA 2 Replies Last reply
                          • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                            @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                            @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                            Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                            Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                            Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                            I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.

                            HoraceH Offline
                            HoraceH Offline
                            Horace
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #190

                            @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                            @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                            @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                            Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                            Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                            Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                            I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.

                            You were happily giggling away at "bad free speech takes" recently. Such giggling was an entrenched mainstream center left perspective, before Oct 7, that people who talked about free speech were right wing wackos.

                            Education is extremely important.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • jon-nycJ Offline
                              jon-nycJ Offline
                              jon-nyc
                              wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                              #191

                              Certainly not. Perhaps the people with the shitty 1st amendment that I posted takes just happened to be on the right.

                              Only non-witches get due process.

                              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                              HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                              • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                                Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                                Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                                I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.

                                Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.

                                This is just the first time I’ve seen the board coalesce around speech restrictions. I don’t believe it’s happened before.

                                HoraceH Offline
                                HoraceH Offline
                                Horace
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #192

                                @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                                Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                                Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                                I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.

                                Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.

                                This is just the first time I’ve seen the board coalesce around speech restrictions. I don’t believe it’s happened before.

                                The agreement you're noticing is around double standards and the practicalities of making them more fair.

                                Education is extremely important.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • jon-nycJ Offline
                                  jon-nycJ Offline
                                  jon-nyc
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #193

                                  If it were that I’d chime in. See Philip Lemoine’s comments which we discussed.

                                  At the end of the day, the university presidents communicated the view that is consistent with the first amendment. Speech is not per se harassment or bullying. It does in fact depend on context.

                                  Only non-witches get due process.

                                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                  HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                                  • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                    Certainly not. Perhaps the people with the shitty 1st amendment that I posted takes just happened to be on the right.

                                    HoraceH Offline
                                    HoraceH Offline
                                    Horace
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #194

                                    @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                    Certainly not. Perhaps the people with the shitty 1st amendment that I posted takes just happened to be on the right.

                                    I can browse twitter, er X. That giggling about bad free speech takes an was entrenched mainstream center left meme, as they continued to marginalize anybody who sniffs of being on the right.

                                    Education is extremely important.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • jon-nycJ Offline
                                      jon-nycJ Offline
                                      jon-nyc
                                      wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                                      #195

                                      You do that if you want. Just don’t try to pin it on me.

                                      Only non-witches get due process.

                                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                        If it were that I’d chime in. See Philip Lemoine’s comments which we discussed.

                                        At the end of the day, the university presidents communicated the view that is consistent with the first amendment. Speech is not per se harassment or bullying. It does in fact depend on context.

                                        HoraceH Offline
                                        HoraceH Offline
                                        Horace
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #196

                                        @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                        If it were that I’d chime in. See Philip Lemoine’s comments which we discussed.

                                        At the end of the day, the university presidents communicated the view that is consistent with the first amendment. Speech is not per se harassment or bullying. It does in fact depend on context.

                                        They weren't asked about the first amendment, they were asked about university policy.

                                        Education is extremely important.

                                        jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                          @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                          @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                          Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                                          Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                                          Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                                          I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.

                                          Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.

                                          This is just the first time I’ve seen the board coalesce around speech restrictions. I don’t believe it’s happened before.

                                          Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                          Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                          Aqua Letifer
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #197

                                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                          @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                          @Aqua-Letifer said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                          @jon-nyc said in Meanwhile, at Harvard...:

                                          Some say that about people who say trans women are not women.

                                          Who do you want to decide where that line is?

                                          Okay how about we not pretend that this here is the line and we just crossed it. Were you so quick to cite FIRE during the Evergreen College shenanigans? Compelled speech laws?

                                          I didn’t have to, no one here was on the other side of the debate.

                                          Fair enough, but your framing of the issue here makes it sound as if this is your first introduction to the "who decides" problem. We already know who decides. They've been deciding for years now.

                                          This is just the first time I’ve seen the board coalesce around speech restrictions. I don’t believe it’s happened before.

                                          Gotcha. For me it's potentially different. This isn't some low-EQ sales guy who ignores a pronoun and gets fired for it.

                                          In some of these incidents, you have a group of people in which "raising awareness" is a fucking joke. Intimidating jews is obviously their goal, and they hide behind free speech and their numbers in order to threaten. That's no longer free speech.

                                          In other cases, sure. The "Free Palestine" stuff is silly but fine.

                                          Please love yourself.

                                          jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
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