The Jan 6 “nothing burger”

[Aqua Letifer]

@doctor-phibes said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

I'm unconvinced that Louisiana is any more 'normal America' than Massachusetts.

Agree. Most of my neighbors are Trumpists.

[George K]

I'm still waiting for the standards and procedures for use of deadly force by the Capitol Police.

Hell, I'll even ignore the request for the cop's name. Just tell me if policy was followed.

In a med-mal lawsuit, one of the first questions asked is, "Doctor, what are your department's policies for...."

[Loki]

@george-k said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

I'm still waiting for the standards and procedures for use of deadly force by the Capitol Police.

Is the standard different from other police forces, because we’ve seen plenty of examples now of what police apparently say is enough. In fact that debate is the root of so many problems we are facing.

But maybe to your point why no uproar now?

[Jolly]

@george-k said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

I'm still waiting for the standards and procedures for use of deadly force by the Capitol Police.

Hell, I'll even ignore the request for the cop's name. Just tell me if policy was followed.

In a med-mal lawsuit, one of the first questions asked is, "Doctor, what are your department's policies for...."

The hot rumor is that the shooter was one of Pence's Secret Service detail...

[George K]

@loki said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

But maybe to your point why no uproar now?

Easy:

1. "Democracy was threatened" (ignore the fact that within hours, Congress did its job).
2. The woman killed was white and unarmed.

[jon-nyc]

@horace said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

Anything that locking the doors of the Capitol wouldn't have fixed?

If we live in a country in which something "terrible" can happen to the very seat of government because a mob chooses to enter unlocked doors of a building, then we need better security, don't you think?

Could have said the same thing about 9/11 and cockpit dooors.

[Mik]

Actually the Capitol doors were locked. They broke in.

[Horace]

@jon-nyc said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

@horace said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

Anything that locking the doors of the Capitol wouldn't have fixed?

If we live in a country in which something "terrible" can happen to the very seat of government because a mob chooses to enter unlocked doors of a building, then we need better security, don't you think?

Could have said the same thing about 9/11 and cockpit dooors.

You'll find "all they had to do was lock the cockpit doors" in at least a couple posts of mine after Jan 6.

[Horace]

@mik said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

Actually the Capitol doors were locked. They broke in.

I didn't know that.

[Copper]

I think that when the producers weren’t getting the surge of people they wanted, they had the security guys open the doors

[Horace]

@copper said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

I think that when the producers weren’t getting the surge of people they wanted, they had the security guys open the doors

Apparently there was some mixture of being ushered through open doors by security, and a mob storming through defenses prepared by security experts who had honed their craft against insurrectionists for 60 years. But hadn’t yet developed their art to the point where they don’t usher insurrectionists in.

[Loki]

@horace said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

@copper said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

I think that when the producers weren’t getting the surge of people they wanted, they had the security guys open the doors

Apparently there was some mixture of being ushered through open doors by security, and a mob storming through defenses prepared by security experts who had honed their craft against insurrectionists for 60 years. But hadn’t yet developed their art to the point where they don’t usher insurrectionists in.

I know that’s sarcasm on your part but how do you feel about millions of people believing what you said?

[Horace]

@loki said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

@horace said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

@copper said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

I think that when the producers weren’t getting the surge of people they wanted, they had the security guys open the doors

Apparently there was some mixture of being ushered through open doors by security, and a mob storming through defenses prepared by security experts who had honed their craft against insurrectionists for 60 years. But hadn’t yet developed their art to the point where they don’t usher insurrectionists in.

I know that’s sarcasm on your part but how do you feel about millions of people believing what you said?

Believing what part of what I said? The part about the mob circumventing security measures honed by 60 years of experience in mob defense, came from you. I think the notion that this mob overcame any significant resistance is ridiculous, but you continue to present your descriptions as if they are ground truth fact, the denial of which a litmus test for insanity.

[kluurs]

For me, it is a very sad affair. This was a mob action. This mob was heterogenous, some peaceful, some insurrectionist, some disturbed - still most of them felt they were doing some patriotic. If the election were "stolen," then would seem reasonable for patriots to rise up and restore the appropriate leadership.

What would have happened if they had gotten to Pence, Pelosi or Osorio might be frightening. Mobs, regardless of political persuasion, are not the best source of reasoned action.

Police understand that a bit better than pacifists, politicians, or most internet commentators.

My sense is that the police and some in the leadership responsible for security were concerned that an overly aggressive security presence would draw criticism. They had been criticized as being overly zealous in removing the crowd in front of the church. Some of these people may have been sensitive to that - or even more so if appointed by the President.

As for an investigation, if we could spend years and tens of millions of dollars investigating the Clintons for things such as Christmas card mailings, Whitewater, lies in a civil court matter, Benghazi, etc., the suggestion that this be considered does not seem out of bounds with past experience. If this had happened on Obama's watch, it is not inconceivable that the GOP House and Senate might have considered doing so.

What is incredibly sad, is that these patriots (even if misguided, misinformed or misled) will be irrevocably harmed for their actions. This political game that is being played is getting ugly.

[Horace]

Yeah, mobs suck. I wish we could all agree with that, but the fact is, the left relies on mobs to express their political outrage. When right-affiliated mobs go mobbing, on the other hand, we're all in agreement that it's a bad idea.

[Loki]

@horace said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

@loki said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

@horace said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

@copper said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

I think that when the producers weren’t getting the surge of people they wanted, they had the security guys open the doors

Apparently there was some mixture of being ushered through open doors by security, and a mob storming through defenses prepared by security experts who had honed their craft against insurrectionists for 60 years. But hadn’t yet developed their art to the point where they don’t usher insurrectionists in.

I know that’s sarcasm on your part but how do you feel about millions of people believing what you said?

Believing what part of what I said? The part about the mob circumventing security measures honed by 60 years of experience against mob defense, came from you. I think the notion that this mob overcame any significant resistance is ridiculous, but you continue to present your descriptions as if they are ground truth fact, the denial of which a litmus test for insanity.

I agree that we need to let the legal system decide the guilt or innocence of people but as they say you are the average of your five closest friends and if all my friends looked at the videos and thought they were innocent I would be in rough shape.

[Horace]

@loki said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

@horace said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

@loki said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

@horace said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

@copper said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

I think that when the producers weren’t getting the surge of people they wanted, they had the security guys open the doors

Apparently there was some mixture of being ushered through open doors by security, and a mob storming through defenses prepared by security experts who had honed their craft against insurrectionists for 60 years. But hadn’t yet developed their art to the point where they don’t usher insurrectionists in.

I know that’s sarcasm on your part but how do you feel about millions of people believing what you said?

Believing what part of what I said? The part about the mob circumventing security measures honed by 60 years of experience against mob defense, came from you. I think the notion that this mob overcame any significant resistance is ridiculous, but you continue to present your descriptions as if they are ground truth fact, the denial of which a litmus test for insanity.

I agree that we need to let the legal system decide the guilt or innocence of people but as they say you are the average of your five closest friends and if all my friends looked at the videos and thought they were innocent I would be in rough shape.

I'm sure there's footage of imbeciles illegally own-goaling in the Capitol. Personally, I have hundreds of friends, and to narrow it down to the five closest would hurt the feelings of many, so I won't. But none of my hundreds of friends are of the opinion that Capitol invaders shouldn't be punished.

[Jolly]

@kluurs said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

For me, it is a very sad affair. This was a mob action. This mob was heterogenous, some peaceful, some insurrectionist, some disturbed - still most of them felt they were doing some patriotic. If the election were "stolen," then would seem reasonable for patriots to rise up and restore the appropriate leadership.

What would have happened if they had gotten to Pence, Pelosi or Osorio might be frightening. Mobs, regardless of political persuasion, are not the best source of reasoned action.

Police understand that a bit better than pacifists, politicians, or most internet commentators.

My sense is that the police and some in the leadership responsible for security were concerned that an overly aggressive security presence would draw criticism. They had been criticized as being overly zealous in removing the crowd in front of the church. Some of these people may have been sensitive to that - or even more so if appointed by the President.

As for an investigation, if we could spend years and tens of millions of dollars investigating the Clintons for things such as Christmas card mailings, Whitewater, lies in a civil court matter, Benghazi, etc., the suggestion that this be considered does not seem out of bounds with past experience. If this had happened on Obama's watch, it is not inconceivable that the GOP House and Senate might have considered doing so.

What is incredibly sad, is that these patriots (even if misguided, misinformed or misled) will be irrevocably harmed for their actions. This political game that is being played is getting ugly.

It's going to get much uglier...

[kluurs]

@horace said in The Jan 6 “nothing burger”:

Yeah, mobs suck. I wish we could all agree with that, but the fact is, the left relies on mobs to express their political outrage.

The mob actions taken last summer harmed innocents - i.e. business owners and their employees. I can sympathize with frustration that perceived justice has at times not been achieved but not not with harming others. I always recall Victor Frankl talking about walking with a fellow former prisoner from Auschwitz, coming to a field where his compatriot walked over young seedlings. Frankl suggested a different path, but the other prisoner felt that after what they had enduring they were owed the right to ignore courtesy toward the work of others. Not true.

I keep thinking that police work has never been more difficult nor constrained than it is today. Expectations of appropriate behavior have never been higher - and respect, likely never lower. How do we attract the best to this profession under those circumstances?

And our expectations of how to deal with the chaos of a mob destroying the lives and property of others or of the state? Watching some of the rioting last summer, more than once I saw the police capture the person most easily secured (e.g. 15 year old 80 lb suburban girl) rather than go after the linebacker sized vandal. Easier arrest - proof that something is "being done" - but we need better strategies in addressing the madness of mobs. Mobs are learning that they can control the situation - and consequences are unlikely. That is an unhealthy situation for us - again regardless of the ideology or motive of the mob action.

[Horace]

Could we be doing less to discourage the woke riots? Many local governments essentially accepted them as righteous and appropriate. Could we be doing more to make an example of the Jan 6 riots? Will that example be applied to the next woke riots?