Patriots Only
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Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
What China is doing to Hong Kong is a long way from being patriotic.
In the West, many would say that holding the government to account for its actions is patriotic. Others would say that criticising, for example, going to war, is unpatriotic, as it undermines the troops, blah blah blah.
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 18:49 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
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wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 18:56 last edited by
“Patriotism is inevitable and participated in by everybody to some extent. If it is taken to insanely destructive extremes, then stop calling it patriotism. Find a better word.”
-Horace, TNCR
That quote really resonates with me.
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@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 19:13 last edited by@axtremus said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
I love the quote. I'm amazed that anybody noticed
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“Patriotism is inevitable and participated in by everybody to some extent. If it is taken to insanely destructive extremes, then stop calling it patriotism. Find a better word.”
-Horace, TNCR
That quote really resonates with me.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 19:17 last edited by Doctor Phibes@horace said in Patriots Only:
“Patriotism is inevitable and participated in by everybody to some extent. If it is taken to insanely destructive extremes, then stop calling it patriotism. Find a better word.”
-Horace, TNCR
That quote really resonates with me.
Yes, but you can replace the word 'patriotism' in that sentence with any number of words. Hunger, or Anger, or Irritation, or Taxation, or even 'An interest in farmyard animals'.
You can't say the same about Doctor Johnson's, except possibly for the last one.
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@axtremus said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
I love the quote. I'm amazed that anybody noticed
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 19:33 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@axtremus said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
I love the quote. I'm amazed that anybody noticed
Or name calling is the last refuge of a coward. Or ______ is the last refuge of a _____. A person could have all kinds of fun with this one....
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@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@axtremus said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
I love the quote. I'm amazed that anybody noticed
Or name calling is the last refuge of a coward. Or ______ is the last refuge of a _____. A person could have all kinds of fun with this one....
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 19:38 last edited by@jolly said in Patriots Only:
Or name calling is the last refuge of a coward.
Sorry, but that's bollocks. Name calling is the last refuge of somebody who's run out of decent arguments. Not very pithy, I know. Running away is the last refuge of a coward.
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@horace said in Patriots Only:
“Patriotism is inevitable and participated in by everybody to some extent. If it is taken to insanely destructive extremes, then stop calling it patriotism. Find a better word.”
-Horace, TNCR
That quote really resonates with me.
Yes, but you can replace the word 'patriotism' in that sentence with any number of words. Hunger, or Anger, or Irritation, or Taxation, or even 'An interest in farmyard animals'.
You can't say the same about Doctor Johnson's, except possibly for the last one.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 19:48 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@horace said in Patriots Only:
“Patriotism is inevitable and participated in by everybody to some extent. If it is taken to insanely destructive extremes, then stop calling it patriotism. Find a better word.”
-Horace, TNCR
That quote really resonates with me.
Yes, but you can replace the word 'patriotism' in that sentence with any number of words.
My point being, it is a convenient turn of phrase to take a word that doesn't have a negative moral connotation, and put it in a negative light just by saying it can be taken to horrible extremes.
You're more than happy to see the word "patriotism" take on a negative moral connotation, because that's your bias - you tend not to like people who like the concept. Even as you admit you feel it yourself for your own home country, while struggling to re-word it. I'm just trying to be a realist about the concept. We all feel it, unless we're culturally suicidal. (As many on the left are. Recall Mrs Obama saying she had never been proud of her country until she was voted in as First Lady by her country's electorate.)
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wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 19:55 last edited by Doctor Phibes
If chocolate is taken to extremes, it gets pretty ugly. And who doesn't love chocolate?
My argument is not that the extreme of patriotism is bad, that's obvious. My argument is that patriotism is frequently hijacked by cynical people as an excuse to do bad things. I'm not saying that patriotism is bad. I'm saying that people who claim to be very patriotic can be bad.
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@jolly said in Patriots Only:
Or name calling is the last refuge of a coward.
Sorry, but that's bollocks. Name calling is the last refuge of somebody who's run out of decent arguments. Not very pithy, I know. Running away is the last refuge of a coward.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 19:58 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@jolly said in Patriots Only:
Or name calling is the last refuge of a coward.
Sorry, but that's bollocks. Name calling is the last refuge of somebody who's run out of decent arguments. Not very pithy, I know. Running away is the last refuge of a coward.
The initial quote is bollocks. I'm just riffing off of it...
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@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@jolly said in Patriots Only:
Or name calling is the last refuge of a coward.
Sorry, but that's bollocks. Name calling is the last refuge of somebody who's run out of decent arguments. Not very pithy, I know. Running away is the last refuge of a coward.
The initial quote is bollocks. I'm just riffing off of it...
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 20:01 last edited by@jolly said in Patriots Only:
The initial quote is bollocks.
It's not, though. How many times have dreadful people made an appeal to patriotism?
Patriotism isn't bad, but the people who appeal to it can be.
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@jolly said in Patriots Only:
The initial quote is bollocks.
It's not, though. How many times have dreadful people made an appeal to patriotism?
Patriotism isn't bad, but the people who appeal to it can be.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 20:51 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@jolly said in Patriots Only:
The initial quote is bollocks.
It's not, though. How many times have dreadful people made an appeal to patriotism?
Patriotism isn't bad, but the people who appeal to it can be.
Yep, absolute asshole...
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@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@jolly said in Patriots Only:
The initial quote is bollocks.
It's not, though. How many times have dreadful people made an appeal to patriotism?
Patriotism isn't bad, but the people who appeal to it can be.
Yep, absolute asshole...
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 20:59 last edited by Doctor PhibesAre you guys deliberately misunderstanding me or are you just being a bit thick?
I say bad people have a tendency to do something. This is completely discredited by someobody who did the same thing who was not a bad person?
Or should I just declare victory by application of inverse Godwin's law?
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wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 21:26 last edited by
I understand. The idea of patriotism can be used to manipulate the masses for nefarious goals.
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wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 21:29 last edited by
...as in the case of Hitler.
There. It's done.
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If the citizens of a country are not proud of their country, it won't be long before they are not citizens. The country will not exist.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 21:40 last edited by@jolly said in Patriots Only:
If the citizens of a country are not proud of their country, it won't be long before they are not citizens. The country will not exist.
This.
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@jolly said in Patriots Only:
If the citizens of a country are not proud of their country, it won't be long before they are not citizens. The country will not exist.
This.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 23:08 last edited by@mik said in Patriots Only:
@jolly said in Patriots Only:
If the citizens of a country are not proud of their country, it won't be long before they are not citizens. The country will not exist.
This.
...as in the case of Hitler.
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wrote on 1 Apr 2021, 02:03 last edited by
The argument that Germany lost WW2 due to it being insufficiently patriotic has novelty on its side, if little else.