Patriots Only
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@horace said in Patriots Only:
That might be a good word, yes. Care to offer up a better word? Cultish? Maniacally bloodthirsty? Indoctrinated and ignorant? Thoughtless?
I imagine many feel as though they're being brutalized by a tyrannical government who are using the word 'patriot' to describe people who are willing to go along with this.
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I think Patriotism is an amoral concept. It can be used for good or bad.
I do think people are re-ordering their values so that Patriotism is moving down the hierarchy.
I agree that leftwingers are more willing to deprioritize it. But even conservatives - I'm starting to see more kinship across political ideologies than countryman.
Said another way - I think that most American conservatives would probably feel more kinship with a UK or Canadian conservative than they would with an American lefty.
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Also, loving one's country isn't the same as thinking it's the greatest place on earth. I know there are plenty of things that are pretty awful about the UK, but when I visit, I still feel as though I'm coming home. That's not a patriotic feeling, it's a feeling of belonging.
There's also a difference between loving your country and supporting the idiots who run it. The idea that I should go along with a war I don't understand because my country has joined it doesn't make sense. My grandfather and his six brothers all volunteered in 1914 out of a sense of patriotic duty. He regretted it for the rest of his life.
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Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@horace said in Patriots Only:
That might be a good word, yes. Care to offer up a better word? Cultish? Maniacally bloodthirsty? Indoctrinated and ignorant? Thoughtless?
I imagine many feel as though they're being brutalized by a tyrannical government who are using the word 'patriot' to describe people who are willing to go along with this.
It would be interesting to know how the rank and file native Chinese populace feels about it. It's pretty easy for a westerner to go off the rails in an attempt at projecting their own values and opinions onto that culture.
Education is extremely important.
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@horace said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@horace said in Patriots Only:
That might be a good word, yes. Care to offer up a better word? Cultish? Maniacally bloodthirsty? Indoctrinated and ignorant? Thoughtless?
I imagine many feel as though they're being brutalized by a tyrannical government who are using the word 'patriot' to describe people who are willing to go along with this.
It would be interesting to know how the rank and file native Chinese populace feels about it. It's pretty easy for a westerner to go off the rails in an attempt at projecting their own values and opinions onto that culture.
I suspect the people in mainland China aren't exactly getting the full picture. The people of Hong Kong weren't ruled by China until 1997, so I'd guess that maybe they have a somewhat different perspective.
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@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
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@axtremus said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
I love the quote. I'm amazed that anybody noticed
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@horace said in Patriots Only:
“Patriotism is inevitable and participated in by everybody to some extent. If it is taken to insanely destructive extremes, then stop calling it patriotism. Find a better word.”
-Horace, TNCR
That quote really resonates with me.
Yes, but you can replace the word 'patriotism' in that sentence with any number of words. Hunger, or Anger, or Irritation, or Taxation, or even 'An interest in farmyard animals'.
You can't say the same about Doctor Johnson's, except possibly for the last one.
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@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@axtremus said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
I love the quote. I'm amazed that anybody noticed
Or name calling is the last refuge of a coward. Or ______ is the last refuge of a _____. A person could have all kinds of fun with this one....
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
@jolly said in Patriots Only:
Or name calling is the last refuge of a coward.
Sorry, but that's bollocks. Name calling is the last refuge of somebody who's run out of decent arguments. Not very pithy, I know. Running away is the last refuge of a coward.
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@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@horace said in Patriots Only:
“Patriotism is inevitable and participated in by everybody to some extent. If it is taken to insanely destructive extremes, then stop calling it patriotism. Find a better word.”
-Horace, TNCR
That quote really resonates with me.
Yes, but you can replace the word 'patriotism' in that sentence with any number of words.
My point being, it is a convenient turn of phrase to take a word that doesn't have a negative moral connotation, and put it in a negative light just by saying it can be taken to horrible extremes.
You're more than happy to see the word "patriotism" take on a negative moral connotation, because that's your bias - you tend not to like people who like the concept. Even as you admit you feel it yourself for your own home country, while struggling to re-word it. I'm just trying to be a realist about the concept. We all feel it, unless we're culturally suicidal. (As many on the left are. Recall Mrs Obama saying she had never been proud of her country until she was voted in as First Lady by her country's electorate.)
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If chocolate is taken to extremes, it gets pretty ugly. And who doesn't love chocolate?
My argument is not that the extreme of patriotism is bad, that's obvious. My argument is that patriotism is frequently hijacked by cynical people as an excuse to do bad things. I'm not saying that patriotism is bad. I'm saying that people who claim to be very patriotic can be bad.
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@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@jolly said in Patriots Only:
Or name calling is the last refuge of a coward.
Sorry, but that's bollocks. Name calling is the last refuge of somebody who's run out of decent arguments. Not very pithy, I know. Running away is the last refuge of a coward.
The initial quote is bollocks. I'm just riffing off of it...
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
@jolly said in Patriots Only:
The initial quote is bollocks.
It's not, though. How many times have dreadful people made an appeal to patriotism?
Patriotism isn't bad, but the people who appeal to it can be.
Proud supporter of Plan 2525.
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@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@jolly said in Patriots Only:
The initial quote is bollocks.
It's not, though. How many times have dreadful people made an appeal to patriotism?
Patriotism isn't bad, but the people who appeal to it can be.
Yep, absolute asshole...
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
Are you guys deliberately misunderstanding me or are you just being a bit thick?
I say bad people have a tendency to do something. This is completely discredited by someobody who did the same thing who was not a bad person?
Or should I just declare victory by application of inverse Godwin's law?
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...as in the case of Hitler.
There. It's done.
