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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Puzzle Time - Election Edition

Puzzle Time - Election Edition

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  • KlausK Offline
    KlausK Offline
    Klaus
    wrote on last edited by
    #2

    Hm, 200! is a pretty big number...

    1 Reply Last reply
    • KlausK Offline
      KlausK Offline
      Klaus
      wrote on last edited by
      #3

      It's less than 41%. Probably way less.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • KlausK Offline
        KlausK Offline
        Klaus
        wrote on last edited by Klaus
        #4

        I guess Catalan numbers might be quite useful here.

        39fa232b-b54b-462c-b1b9-a3c711f221b1-image.png

        Am I on the right track?

        1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by
          #5

          Looks promising. I haven’t solved it yet.

          Only non-witches get due process.

          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
          1 Reply Last reply
          • KlausK Offline
            KlausK Offline
            Klaus
            wrote on last edited by Klaus
            #6

            By "lead" you mean "strictly more than"?

            That is, the first four votes must necessarily be one of:

            KKKK
            KKKH
            KKHK

            Out of 24 possible sequences of four votes.

            Looks like it's going to be a very tiny fraction.

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            • jon-nycJ Online
              jon-nycJ Online
              jon-nyc
              wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
              #7

              Out of 16, not 24, but yes.

              Only non-witches get due process.

              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
              1 Reply Last reply
              • KlausK Offline
                KlausK Offline
                Klaus
                wrote on last edited by
                #8

                Right. The factorial only kicks in once there aren't enough votes left anymore 🙂

                1 Reply Last reply
                • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                  Doctor PhibesD Offline
                  Doctor Phibes
                  wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
                  #9

                  You can treat the votes as a weighted random walk, right?. I studies this many years ago, but can't remember a damn thing about the analysis. I Wiki'd it briefly, and then closed the page in horror at how much I've forgotten.

                  I was only joking

                  KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
                  • jon-nycJ Online
                    jon-nycJ Online
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #10

                    I was thinking you could model it as a lattice path of n=94, but only after the first two votes come in. But I haven’t figured out how to work the probabilities in.

                    Only non-witches get due process.

                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • jon-nycJ Online
                      jon-nycJ Online
                      jon-nyc
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #11

                      That seems not quite right either, because you could go ‘off’ the path in K’s favor and return to it .

                      Only non-witches get due process.

                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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                      • jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #12

                        Might be as easy as to start calculating the probabilities at each step and see if it starts to form some recognizable series.

                        Only non-witches get due process.

                        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                          You can treat the votes as a weighted random walk, right?. I studies this many years ago, but can't remember a damn thing about the analysis. I Wiki'd it briefly, and then closed the page in horror at how much I've forgotten.

                          KlausK Offline
                          KlausK Offline
                          Klaus
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #13

                          @Doctor-Phibes said in Puzzle Time - Election Edition:

                          You can treat the votes as a weighted random walk, right?. I studies this many years ago, but can't remember a damn thing about the analysis. I Wiki'd it briefly, and then closed the page in horror at how much I've forgotten.

                          Yep, thought about that, too. What makes this problem difficult is that it's not a Markov chain: the probabilities change based on previous outcomes.

                          A standard example in stochastic processes is that of a drunkard who either takes steps towards a cliff with probability p or the other way with probability 1-p, and then to compute the probability that he will eventually fall over the cliff. But that's simpler because it is a Markov chain, I think.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • KlausK Offline
                            KlausK Offline
                            Klaus
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #14

                            I think I got it.

                            || (105-95) / (105+95) = 5%
                            Derivation to follow.
                            ||

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • KlausK Offline
                              KlausK Offline
                              Klaus
                              wrote on last edited by Klaus
                              #15

                              Here's why:

                              ||
                              Let's call a sequence of votes a path.

                              There's a one-to-one correspondence between the paths that start with H and the paths that start with K but lead to a tie.

                              Meaning there are just as many of the former as of the latter.

                              The "successful" paths are the remaining ones.

                              So the probability of being on a successful path is

                              1 - 2*(probability of starting with H).

                              The probability of starting with H is 95/200. Hence

                              1-2*95/200 = (105-95)/(105-95) = 0.05.

                              ||

                              That was way easier than I thought. Which probably means I screwed up 😉

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • jon-nycJ Online
                                jon-nycJ Online
                                jon-nyc
                                wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                                #16

                                That doesn’t make any sense. “The successful paths are the remaining ones” isn’t true. It’s a small subset of the remaining ones.

                                Remember you have to stay in the lead the whole time.

                                Only non-witches get due process.

                                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • KlausK Offline
                                  KlausK Offline
                                  Klaus
                                  wrote on last edited by Klaus
                                  #17

                                  By "lead to a tie" I mean: It ever happens that K is not in the lead. Hence by definition the remaining ones must be the ones where K is always leading.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • jon-nycJ Online
                                    jon-nycJ Online
                                    jon-nyc
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #18

                                    No, there are plenty of cases where K has the lead, loses the lead for a while, and gains it back.

                                    Only non-witches get due process.

                                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                    KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
                                    • KlausK Offline
                                      KlausK Offline
                                      Klaus
                                      wrote on last edited by Klaus
                                      #19

                                      Here's how to construct the 1:1 correspondence.

                                      Assume a path that leads to a tie, say

                                      KKHH...

                                      which yields a tie after 4 votes.

                                      Now take every vote until the tie and flip K with H and vice versa.
                                      The remainder stays the same.

                                      HHKK...

                                      That's the corresponding path starting with H.

                                      That correspondence works both ways because every path starting with H must eventually be tied at some point (because K has more votes).

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                        No, there are plenty of cases where K has the lead, loses the lead for a while, and gains it back.

                                        KlausK Offline
                                        KlausK Offline
                                        Klaus
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #20

                                        @jon-nyc said in Puzzle Time - Election Edition:

                                        No, there are plenty of cases where K has the lead, loses the lead for a while, and gains it back.

                                        Exactly. Those cases shouldn't count as successful. And I don't count them, since they are among the paths where there is at least one tie in between.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • KlausK Offline
                                          KlausK Offline
                                          Klaus
                                          wrote on last edited by Klaus
                                          #21

                                          Let me illustrate that my solution works with a simpler case:

                                          Let's say that K wins with 3 votes against 2 votes for H.

                                          According to my solution, the probability would be (3-2)/(3+2) = 20%.

                                          Let's consider all 10 possible sequences:

                                          HKKKH
                                          HKKHK
                                          HKHKK
                                          HHKKK
                                          KHKKH
                                          KHKHK
                                          KHHKK
                                          KKHKH
                                          KKHHK
                                          KKKHH

                                          Only two of these are successful, namely:

                                          KKHKH
                                          KKKHH

                                          2 out of 10; exactly the 20% my formula predicted.

                                          You can also see the 1:1 correspondence of the remaining 8 ones: There's an equal number of paths starting with H and unsuccessful paths starting with K, namely 4 each. Flip at the first tie and you get the corresponding other one. Here are the four pairs of the correspondence.

                                          HKKKH - KHKKH
                                          HKKHK - KHKKH
                                          HKHKK - KHHKK
                                          HHKKK - KKHHK

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