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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
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  3. Puzzle Time - Election Edition

Puzzle Time - Election Edition

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  • KlausK Offline
    KlausK Offline
    Klaus
    wrote on last edited by
    #3

    It's less than 41%. Probably way less.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • KlausK Offline
      KlausK Offline
      Klaus
      wrote on last edited by Klaus
      #4

      I guess Catalan numbers might be quite useful here.

      39fa232b-b54b-462c-b1b9-a3c711f221b1-image.png

      Am I on the right track?

      1 Reply Last reply
      • jon-nycJ Offline
        jon-nycJ Offline
        jon-nyc
        wrote on last edited by
        #5

        Looks promising. I haven’t solved it yet.

        Only non-witches get due process.

        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
        1 Reply Last reply
        • KlausK Offline
          KlausK Offline
          Klaus
          wrote on last edited by Klaus
          #6

          By "lead" you mean "strictly more than"?

          That is, the first four votes must necessarily be one of:

          KKKK
          KKKH
          KKHK

          Out of 24 possible sequences of four votes.

          Looks like it's going to be a very tiny fraction.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nyc
            wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
            #7

            Out of 16, not 24, but yes.

            Only non-witches get due process.

            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
            1 Reply Last reply
            • KlausK Offline
              KlausK Offline
              Klaus
              wrote on last edited by
              #8

              Right. The factorial only kicks in once there aren't enough votes left anymore 🙂

              1 Reply Last reply
              • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                Doctor PhibesD Offline
                Doctor Phibes
                wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
                #9

                You can treat the votes as a weighted random walk, right?. I studies this many years ago, but can't remember a damn thing about the analysis. I Wiki'd it briefly, and then closed the page in horror at how much I've forgotten.

                I was only joking

                KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
                • jon-nycJ Offline
                  jon-nycJ Offline
                  jon-nyc
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #10

                  I was thinking you could model it as a lattice path of n=94, but only after the first two votes come in. But I haven’t figured out how to work the probabilities in.

                  Only non-witches get due process.

                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #11

                    That seems not quite right either, because you could go ‘off’ the path in K’s favor and return to it .

                    Only non-witches get due process.

                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • jon-nycJ Offline
                      jon-nycJ Offline
                      jon-nyc
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #12

                      Might be as easy as to start calculating the probabilities at each step and see if it starts to form some recognizable series.

                      Only non-witches get due process.

                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                        You can treat the votes as a weighted random walk, right?. I studies this many years ago, but can't remember a damn thing about the analysis. I Wiki'd it briefly, and then closed the page in horror at how much I've forgotten.

                        KlausK Offline
                        KlausK Offline
                        Klaus
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #13

                        @Doctor-Phibes said in Puzzle Time - Election Edition:

                        You can treat the votes as a weighted random walk, right?. I studies this many years ago, but can't remember a damn thing about the analysis. I Wiki'd it briefly, and then closed the page in horror at how much I've forgotten.

                        Yep, thought about that, too. What makes this problem difficult is that it's not a Markov chain: the probabilities change based on previous outcomes.

                        A standard example in stochastic processes is that of a drunkard who either takes steps towards a cliff with probability p or the other way with probability 1-p, and then to compute the probability that he will eventually fall over the cliff. But that's simpler because it is a Markov chain, I think.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • KlausK Offline
                          KlausK Offline
                          Klaus
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #14

                          I think I got it.

                          || (105-95) / (105+95) = 5%
                          Derivation to follow.
                          ||

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • KlausK Offline
                            KlausK Offline
                            Klaus
                            wrote on last edited by Klaus
                            #15

                            Here's why:

                            ||
                            Let's call a sequence of votes a path.

                            There's a one-to-one correspondence between the paths that start with H and the paths that start with K but lead to a tie.

                            Meaning there are just as many of the former as of the latter.

                            The "successful" paths are the remaining ones.

                            So the probability of being on a successful path is

                            1 - 2*(probability of starting with H).

                            The probability of starting with H is 95/200. Hence

                            1-2*95/200 = (105-95)/(105-95) = 0.05.

                            ||

                            That was way easier than I thought. Which probably means I screwed up 😉

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • jon-nycJ Offline
                              jon-nycJ Offline
                              jon-nyc
                              wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                              #16

                              That doesn’t make any sense. “The successful paths are the remaining ones” isn’t true. It’s a small subset of the remaining ones.

                              Remember you have to stay in the lead the whole time.

                              Only non-witches get due process.

                              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • KlausK Offline
                                KlausK Offline
                                Klaus
                                wrote on last edited by Klaus
                                #17

                                By "lead to a tie" I mean: It ever happens that K is not in the lead. Hence by definition the remaining ones must be the ones where K is always leading.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • jon-nycJ Offline
                                  jon-nycJ Offline
                                  jon-nyc
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #18

                                  No, there are plenty of cases where K has the lead, loses the lead for a while, and gains it back.

                                  Only non-witches get due process.

                                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                  KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
                                  • KlausK Offline
                                    KlausK Offline
                                    Klaus
                                    wrote on last edited by Klaus
                                    #19

                                    Here's how to construct the 1:1 correspondence.

                                    Assume a path that leads to a tie, say

                                    KKHH...

                                    which yields a tie after 4 votes.

                                    Now take every vote until the tie and flip K with H and vice versa.
                                    The remainder stays the same.

                                    HHKK...

                                    That's the corresponding path starting with H.

                                    That correspondence works both ways because every path starting with H must eventually be tied at some point (because K has more votes).

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                      No, there are plenty of cases where K has the lead, loses the lead for a while, and gains it back.

                                      KlausK Offline
                                      KlausK Offline
                                      Klaus
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #20

                                      @jon-nyc said in Puzzle Time - Election Edition:

                                      No, there are plenty of cases where K has the lead, loses the lead for a while, and gains it back.

                                      Exactly. Those cases shouldn't count as successful. And I don't count them, since they are among the paths where there is at least one tie in between.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • KlausK Offline
                                        KlausK Offline
                                        Klaus
                                        wrote on last edited by Klaus
                                        #21

                                        Let me illustrate that my solution works with a simpler case:

                                        Let's say that K wins with 3 votes against 2 votes for H.

                                        According to my solution, the probability would be (3-2)/(3+2) = 20%.

                                        Let's consider all 10 possible sequences:

                                        HKKKH
                                        HKKHK
                                        HKHKK
                                        HHKKK
                                        KHKKH
                                        KHKHK
                                        KHHKK
                                        KKHKH
                                        KKHHK
                                        KKKHH

                                        Only two of these are successful, namely:

                                        KKHKH
                                        KKKHH

                                        2 out of 10; exactly the 20% my formula predicted.

                                        You can also see the 1:1 correspondence of the remaining 8 ones: There's an equal number of paths starting with H and unsuccessful paths starting with K, namely 4 each. Flip at the first tie and you get the corresponding other one. Here are the four pairs of the correspondence.

                                        HKKKH - KHKKH
                                        HKKHK - KHKKH
                                        HKHKK - KHHKK
                                        HHKKK - KKHHK

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • jon-nycJ Offline
                                          jon-nycJ Offline
                                          jon-nyc
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #22

                                          Ah, I thought you meant those that ended in a tie. Not those that tied at all. Let me look at it again after I’m done with lunch

                                          Only non-witches get due process.

                                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                          KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
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