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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
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  3. Puzzle Time - Election Edition

Puzzle Time - Election Edition

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  • KlausK Offline
    KlausK Offline
    Klaus
    wrote on last edited by
    #2

    Hm, 200! is a pretty big number...

    1 Reply Last reply
    • KlausK Offline
      KlausK Offline
      Klaus
      wrote on last edited by
      #3

      It's less than 41%. Probably way less.

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      • KlausK Offline
        KlausK Offline
        Klaus
        wrote on last edited by Klaus
        #4

        I guess Catalan numbers might be quite useful here.

        39fa232b-b54b-462c-b1b9-a3c711f221b1-image.png

        Am I on the right track?

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        • jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by
          #5

          Looks promising. I haven’t solved it yet.

          "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
          -Cormac McCarthy

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          • KlausK Offline
            KlausK Offline
            Klaus
            wrote on last edited by Klaus
            #6

            By "lead" you mean "strictly more than"?

            That is, the first four votes must necessarily be one of:

            KKKK
            KKKH
            KKHK

            Out of 24 possible sequences of four votes.

            Looks like it's going to be a very tiny fraction.

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            • jon-nycJ Online
              jon-nycJ Online
              jon-nyc
              wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
              #7

              Out of 16, not 24, but yes.

              "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
              -Cormac McCarthy

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              • KlausK Offline
                KlausK Offline
                Klaus
                wrote on last edited by
                #8

                Right. The factorial only kicks in once there aren't enough votes left anymore 🙂

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                • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                  Doctor PhibesD Offline
                  Doctor Phibes
                  wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
                  #9

                  You can treat the votes as a weighted random walk, right?. I studies this many years ago, but can't remember a damn thing about the analysis. I Wiki'd it briefly, and then closed the page in horror at how much I've forgotten.

                  I was only joking

                  KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
                  • jon-nycJ Online
                    jon-nycJ Online
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #10

                    I was thinking you could model it as a lattice path of n=94, but only after the first two votes come in. But I haven’t figured out how to work the probabilities in.

                    "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                    -Cormac McCarthy

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                    • jon-nycJ Online
                      jon-nycJ Online
                      jon-nyc
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #11

                      That seems not quite right either, because you could go ‘off’ the path in K’s favor and return to it .

                      "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                      -Cormac McCarthy

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                      • jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #12

                        Might be as easy as to start calculating the probabilities at each step and see if it starts to form some recognizable series.

                        "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                        -Cormac McCarthy

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                        • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                          You can treat the votes as a weighted random walk, right?. I studies this many years ago, but can't remember a damn thing about the analysis. I Wiki'd it briefly, and then closed the page in horror at how much I've forgotten.

                          KlausK Offline
                          KlausK Offline
                          Klaus
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #13

                          @Doctor-Phibes said in Puzzle Time - Election Edition:

                          You can treat the votes as a weighted random walk, right?. I studies this many years ago, but can't remember a damn thing about the analysis. I Wiki'd it briefly, and then closed the page in horror at how much I've forgotten.

                          Yep, thought about that, too. What makes this problem difficult is that it's not a Markov chain: the probabilities change based on previous outcomes.

                          A standard example in stochastic processes is that of a drunkard who either takes steps towards a cliff with probability p or the other way with probability 1-p, and then to compute the probability that he will eventually fall over the cliff. But that's simpler because it is a Markov chain, I think.

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                          • KlausK Offline
                            KlausK Offline
                            Klaus
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #14

                            I think I got it.

                            || (105-95) / (105+95) = 5%
                            Derivation to follow.
                            ||

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                            • KlausK Offline
                              KlausK Offline
                              Klaus
                              wrote on last edited by Klaus
                              #15

                              Here's why:

                              ||
                              Let's call a sequence of votes a path.

                              There's a one-to-one correspondence between the paths that start with H and the paths that start with K but lead to a tie.

                              Meaning there are just as many of the former as of the latter.

                              The "successful" paths are the remaining ones.

                              So the probability of being on a successful path is

                              1 - 2*(probability of starting with H).

                              The probability of starting with H is 95/200. Hence

                              1-2*95/200 = (105-95)/(105-95) = 0.05.

                              ||

                              That was way easier than I thought. Which probably means I screwed up 😉

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • jon-nycJ Online
                                jon-nycJ Online
                                jon-nyc
                                wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                                #16

                                That doesn’t make any sense. “The successful paths are the remaining ones” isn’t true. It’s a small subset of the remaining ones.

                                Remember you have to stay in the lead the whole time.

                                "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                                -Cormac McCarthy

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                                • KlausK Offline
                                  KlausK Offline
                                  Klaus
                                  wrote on last edited by Klaus
                                  #17

                                  By "lead to a tie" I mean: It ever happens that K is not in the lead. Hence by definition the remaining ones must be the ones where K is always leading.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • jon-nycJ Online
                                    jon-nycJ Online
                                    jon-nyc
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #18

                                    No, there are plenty of cases where K has the lead, loses the lead for a while, and gains it back.

                                    "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                                    -Cormac McCarthy

                                    KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
                                    • KlausK Offline
                                      KlausK Offline
                                      Klaus
                                      wrote on last edited by Klaus
                                      #19

                                      Here's how to construct the 1:1 correspondence.

                                      Assume a path that leads to a tie, say

                                      KKHH...

                                      which yields a tie after 4 votes.

                                      Now take every vote until the tie and flip K with H and vice versa.
                                      The remainder stays the same.

                                      HHKK...

                                      That's the corresponding path starting with H.

                                      That correspondence works both ways because every path starting with H must eventually be tied at some point (because K has more votes).

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                        No, there are plenty of cases where K has the lead, loses the lead for a while, and gains it back.

                                        KlausK Offline
                                        KlausK Offline
                                        Klaus
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #20

                                        @jon-nyc said in Puzzle Time - Election Edition:

                                        No, there are plenty of cases where K has the lead, loses the lead for a while, and gains it back.

                                        Exactly. Those cases shouldn't count as successful. And I don't count them, since they are among the paths where there is at least one tie in between.

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                                        • KlausK Offline
                                          KlausK Offline
                                          Klaus
                                          wrote on last edited by Klaus
                                          #21

                                          Let me illustrate that my solution works with a simpler case:

                                          Let's say that K wins with 3 votes against 2 votes for H.

                                          According to my solution, the probability would be (3-2)/(3+2) = 20%.

                                          Let's consider all 10 possible sequences:

                                          HKKKH
                                          HKKHK
                                          HKHKK
                                          HHKKK
                                          KHKKH
                                          KHKHK
                                          KHHKK
                                          KKHKH
                                          KKHHK
                                          KKKHH

                                          Only two of these are successful, namely:

                                          KKHKH
                                          KKKHH

                                          2 out of 10; exactly the 20% my formula predicted.

                                          You can also see the 1:1 correspondence of the remaining 8 ones: There's an equal number of paths starting with H and unsuccessful paths starting with K, namely 4 each. Flip at the first tie and you get the corresponding other one. Here are the four pairs of the correspondence.

                                          HKKKH - KHKKH
                                          HKKHK - KHKKH
                                          HKHKK - KHHKK
                                          HHKKK - KKHHK

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