ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis
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@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
I'm aware one can claim a certain verbal framing is the one, true verbal framing. I'm also aware that such claims are flimsy rhetoric.
I don’t think the right would find it flimsy if it came from a democratic president. The message is pretty clear. As it was from Bessent.
@jon-nyc said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
I'm aware one can claim a certain verbal framing is the one, true verbal framing. I'm also aware that such claims are flimsy rhetoric.
I don’t think the right would find it flimsy if it came from a democratic president. The message is pretty clear. As it was from Bessent.
What, that they believe the second amendment should be revoked within ICE protests? Do you think they'd all avow to that, or do you rely on your true framing of their own rhetoric to infer it? If you don't think they'd all avow to that explicitly, then I can infer that you only have a flimsy framing. Whether or not other flimsy framings exist in other whataboutism thought experiments is irrelevant.
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.Lotta dancing going on here, but I think we all agree that the shooting was unjustified. Also, I don't think anyone is arguing that his bringing a gun was foolish. I think we're also agreed that the rush to say stupid things didn't serve to add credibility to the government- but that is not unique to this administration.
We're arguing on his motivations and terminology, hypocrisy of one side or the other. Fun stuff as always. I think we're all agreed that his earlier behavior should have had consequences - but whether that was an indication he was a rabid agitator - or whether he learned from that and came to the party this time to be more responsible - we may never know.
@kluurs said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
.Lotta dancing going on here, but I think we all agree that the shooting was unjustified. Also, I don't think anyone is arguing that his bringing a gun was foolish. I think we're also agreed that the rush to say stupid things didn't serve to add credibility to the government- but that is not unique to this administration.
We're arguing on his motivations and terminology, hypocrisy of one side or the other. Fun stuff as always. I think we're all agreed that his earlier behavior should have had consequences - but whether that was an indication he was a rabid agitator - or whether he learned from that and came to the party this time to be more responsible - we may never know.
A good exposition on the fact that clearly defined disagreements are pretty rare.
Where people differ is in the direction of the rhetoric they prefer to hear and say.
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Just did some exhaustive research, and there is already plenty of precedent for gun bans within permitted protests, on the grounds of heightened risks of violence. Of course these ICE agitation session flash events are not permitted protests, but clearly the same legal logic could apply.
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@jon-nyc said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
@Mik said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Speaks to his state of mind regarding ICE operations. Ax is being deliberately obtuse.
The video title says ‘guy who looks like’ pretti.
But let’s say it is - if the individual agents happen to know that, which is a big if, given they sent about 3000 to Minnesota, it might sorta justify why they used pepper spray on him for trying to help a woman shoved onto the ground by a CBP guy. But I’m not sure it gets you to 10 shots in the back.
Someone yelling "gun", his ongoing resistance to physical restraint, an ambiguously sourced first shot, and potentially panicked reactions from CPB got him 10 shots in the back.
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Someone yelling "gun", his ongoing resistance to physical restraint, an ambiguously sourced first shot, and potentially panicked reactions from CPB got him 10 shots in the back.
This shouldnt have happened but I understand (and somewhat agree with) what Horace is saying.
The ICE agents IMO are not trained to operated in a big city the type of missions that they are doing is very different from what their normal job is.
Long time ago, somebody (maybe @jolly or @george-k) posted a video where they put people (acting as an officer) in a scenario with a person with a knife. Most of the time, the people got "stabbed", their "gun" taken away or both. Or they ended up "shotting" the guy. There was almost no case where there was a peaceful end. THIngs happen so fast in real life, and for a lot of people (especially in this case where they are not trained properly), the primitive part of the brain kicks in.
Again, this shooting should not have happened.
I put it down to lack of training for the officers, rather than a premeditated thinking that they were out to kill him. I also dont think that the guy who got shot was looking for that to happen to him.
I really believe that with a properly trained officers, it would have ended differently. Probably the guy in handcuffs but alive.
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How many people here have been to actual NRA sanctioned Open Carry and Concealed Carry classes? I have been… Even though I don’t own a firearm, I’ve always thought it was good to know a little about them and occasionally go to a range and rent some…
A few of the things that both sessions teach right off of the bat:
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A right to carry is not absolute, there are some places and situations where you are not legally allowed to be in possession of a firearm.
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Even in a place/time where you are legally allowed to carry, it is incumbent on the gun owner to exercise appropriate judgment of whether carrying the gun is beneficial, neutral, or dangerous. It’s the responsibility of the gun owner to exercise sound decision making and judgement on where and when they carry a weapon.
I fail to see a disconnect or hypocrisy on this particular issue.
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The Boss weighs in.
Link to videoDon't recall such literalist lyrics in protest songs of the 60s. They were a little artful and a little less on the nose.
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Odd - I was just listening to a cover of 'For What It's Worth' by Buffalo Springfield yesterday and thinking how it was so relevant at the moment. Horace is right though, it doesn't bang you over the head like Springsteen's effort
A like this version of it....
Link to video -
The only recording of Springsteen as front man vocalist I have ever liked is the Seeger Sessions cover of O Mary Don’t you Weep. Look it up on YouTube.
Everything else he’s done leaves me cold. This latest foray into the folk sub genre of protest and social commentary is no different. He is no match for the likes of Joan Baez or the late Phil Ochs..
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The article talks about the lack of training and lack of training tactics that ICE is using.
Tactically, the way ICE performs its missions has little to do with “enemy” posture or the mission. One, there is no “enemy:” There are persons who may or may not have violated civil law. These people have not declared an intent to resist violently and with deadly force. Yet ICE shows up with maximum force and intimidation—often roping in people on the sidelines and increasing the media impact of their actions.
GENERALLY, ICE AGENTS move with zero military sense. They bunch up and cluster around their target or in doorways; in a combat zone, soldiers clustering up like this could be annihilated by a single grenade or burst from an automatic weapon. It also demonstrates that ICE agents often have very little clue what their mission is. Soldiers are taught to disperse and always move with a head on a swivel for situational awareness. As a soldier, you are taught to point your weapon only at something you intend to shoot. ICE agents have brandished their weapons. Soldiers train to reserve deadly force for identified enemies and to preserve life where possible. ICE and federal agents have publicly killed two unarmed American citizens.
