ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis
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@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Other than Kash Patel, can you name someone who's said something like this? Of course you can't.
Right, so you honestly believe that nobody feels this way other than the Director of the FBI. And that's supposed to make me feel better somehow?
Yes, the dumbest thing anybody has said that I'm aware of, came from the director of the FBI. That sucks. But in terms of culture wars, I'm not aware that it's a tribal thing. An administration thing potentially, and definitely a Kash thing, at least in that moment.
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Yes, the dumbest thing anybody has said that I'm aware of, came from the director of the FBI. That sucks. But in terms of culture wars, I'm not aware that it's a tribal thing. An administration thing potentially, and definitely a Kash thing, at least in that moment.
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Yes, the dumbest thing anybody has said that I'm aware of, came from the director of the FBI. That sucks. But in terms of culture wars, I'm not aware that it's a tribal thing. An administration thing potentially, and definitely a Kash thing, at least in that moment.
Well, the Secretary of Homeland Security called the victim a domestic terrorist, which is essentially the same. That creepy bloke Stephen Miller said the same thing.
This isn't just one guy. When Donald Trump appears to be the calming voice of reason you've got to suspect you have a problem.
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.Lotta dancing going on here, but I think we all agree that the shooting was unjustified. Also, I don't think anyone is arguing that his bringing a gun was foolish. I think we're also agreed that the rush to say stupid things didn't serve to add credibility to the government- but that is not unique to this administration.
We're arguing on his motivations and terminology, hypocrisy of one side or the other. Fun stuff as always. I think we're all agreed that his earlier behavior should have had consequences - but whether that was an indication he was a rabid agitator - or whether he learned from that and came to the party this time to be more responsible - we may never know.
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I'm aware one can claim a certain verbal framing is the one, true verbal framing. I'm also aware that such claims are flimsy rhetoric.
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
I'm aware one can claim a certain verbal framing is the one, true verbal framing. I'm also aware that such claims are flimsy rhetoric.
I don’t think the right would find it flimsy if it came from a democratic president. The message is pretty clear. As it was from Bessent.
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@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
I'm aware one can claim a certain verbal framing is the one, true verbal framing. I'm also aware that such claims are flimsy rhetoric.
I don’t think the right would find it flimsy if it came from a democratic president. The message is pretty clear. As it was from Bessent.
@jon-nyc said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
I'm aware one can claim a certain verbal framing is the one, true verbal framing. I'm also aware that such claims are flimsy rhetoric.
I don’t think the right would find it flimsy if it came from a democratic president. The message is pretty clear. As it was from Bessent.
What, that they believe the second amendment should be revoked within ICE protests? Do you think they'd all avow to that, or do you rely on your true framing of their own rhetoric to infer it? If you don't think they'd all avow to that explicitly, then I can infer that you only have a flimsy framing. Whether or not other flimsy framings exist in other whataboutism thought experiments is irrelevant.
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.Lotta dancing going on here, but I think we all agree that the shooting was unjustified. Also, I don't think anyone is arguing that his bringing a gun was foolish. I think we're also agreed that the rush to say stupid things didn't serve to add credibility to the government- but that is not unique to this administration.
We're arguing on his motivations and terminology, hypocrisy of one side or the other. Fun stuff as always. I think we're all agreed that his earlier behavior should have had consequences - but whether that was an indication he was a rabid agitator - or whether he learned from that and came to the party this time to be more responsible - we may never know.
@kluurs said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
.Lotta dancing going on here, but I think we all agree that the shooting was unjustified. Also, I don't think anyone is arguing that his bringing a gun was foolish. I think we're also agreed that the rush to say stupid things didn't serve to add credibility to the government- but that is not unique to this administration.
We're arguing on his motivations and terminology, hypocrisy of one side or the other. Fun stuff as always. I think we're all agreed that his earlier behavior should have had consequences - but whether that was an indication he was a rabid agitator - or whether he learned from that and came to the party this time to be more responsible - we may never know.
A good exposition on the fact that clearly defined disagreements are pretty rare.
Where people differ is in the direction of the rhetoric they prefer to hear and say.
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Just did some exhaustive research, and there is already plenty of precedent for gun bans within permitted protests, on the grounds of heightened risks of violence. Of course these ICE agitation session flash events are not permitted protests, but clearly the same legal logic could apply.
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@jon-nyc said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
@Mik said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Speaks to his state of mind regarding ICE operations. Ax is being deliberately obtuse.
The video title says ‘guy who looks like’ pretti.
But let’s say it is - if the individual agents happen to know that, which is a big if, given they sent about 3000 to Minnesota, it might sorta justify why they used pepper spray on him for trying to help a woman shoved onto the ground by a CBP guy. But I’m not sure it gets you to 10 shots in the back.
Someone yelling "gun", his ongoing resistance to physical restraint, an ambiguously sourced first shot, and potentially panicked reactions from CPB got him 10 shots in the back.
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Someone yelling "gun", his ongoing resistance to physical restraint, an ambiguously sourced first shot, and potentially panicked reactions from CPB got him 10 shots in the back.
This shouldnt have happened but I understand (and somewhat agree with) what Horace is saying.
The ICE agents IMO are not trained to operated in a big city the type of missions that they are doing is very different from what their normal job is.
Long time ago, somebody (maybe @jolly or @george-k) posted a video where they put people (acting as an officer) in a scenario with a person with a knife. Most of the time, the people got "stabbed", their "gun" taken away or both. Or they ended up "shotting" the guy. There was almost no case where there was a peaceful end. THIngs happen so fast in real life, and for a lot of people (especially in this case where they are not trained properly), the primitive part of the brain kicks in.
Again, this shooting should not have happened.
I put it down to lack of training for the officers, rather than a premeditated thinking that they were out to kill him. I also dont think that the guy who got shot was looking for that to happen to him.
I really believe that with a properly trained officers, it would have ended differently. Probably the guy in handcuffs but alive.
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How many people here have been to actual NRA sanctioned Open Carry and Concealed Carry classes? I have been… Even though I don’t own a firearm, I’ve always thought it was good to know a little about them and occasionally go to a range and rent some…
A few of the things that both sessions teach right off of the bat:
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A right to carry is not absolute, there are some places and situations where you are not legally allowed to be in possession of a firearm.
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Even in a place/time where you are legally allowed to carry, it is incumbent on the gun owner to exercise appropriate judgment of whether carrying the gun is beneficial, neutral, or dangerous. It’s the responsibility of the gun owner to exercise sound decision making and judgement on where and when they carry a weapon.
I fail to see a disconnect or hypocrisy on this particular issue.
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The Boss weighs in.
Link to videoDon't recall such literalist lyrics in protest songs of the 60s. They were a little artful and a little less on the nose.
