ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis
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Maybe the situation is that he jumped hard enough to pull a muscle, and the car missed him entirely. If he needed to jump out of the way, or get run over, then it's reasonable for him to clock the driver as someone with reckless disregard for life, operating a deadly weapon.
It's always ambiguous whether we're talking about strict legalities or justifiability in some moral sense. I think it's difficult to bring the full weight of one's moral compass to bear within a split second.
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That's what LEOs are trained to do. We expect them to make that judgement.
As I said, the shooting may be understandable but that doesn't make it legally correct. Do I think he should get 20 years? Hell no, but he violated procedure in a couple ways.
My fervent hope is that ICE will revisit the way their officers approach people like Good. The military shock and awe is not a good approach.
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If you told me in the abstract that a person was driving amongst law enforcement officers in a deliberate effort to impede them, and eventually was told to stop the car and get out, and one officer was in front of the car at that moment, and the driver shifted into gear and accelerated such that the cop either jumps out of the way immediately or gets run over and maybe killed - then - I'd say that the driver's likely to get shot, if a cop is there at that exact moment to do so.
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It seems obvious that people's judgments of this situation are colored by their attitude towards ICE immigration enforcement in general. This exact situation, except with street cops gathering for some purpose other than to enforce immigration law, would result in a fraction of the assuredness about how many moral and legal lines were crossed.
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Cop have no right of self defense that you and I and the common man on the street don't have. Tell the story in the abstract but put the guy in a hoodie rather than tactical gear and take away his badge. DOn't leave out the part about two shots fired after the car had turned the corner.
Probably Trump and Bondi wouldn't have called the driver a domestic terrorist without an investigation. .
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Tell the story in the abstract but put the guy in a hoodie rather than tactical gear and take away his badge.
Ok, let's imagine a black guy with a legal firearm in a group of black guys, doing something in a professional capacity. Imagine a person who does not like what they do for a living, driving amongst them trying to bother them as they go about doing their job that day. What do you think, would your reaction be the same?
For extra credit, imagine if the person bothering them, was racist?
Probably Trump and Bondi wouldn't have called the driver a domestic terrorist without an investigation.
I'm sure we can all stipulate that the goalposts of the discussion can be shifted.
Education is extremely important.
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I'm old enough to remember people here having kittens about a couple of black guys standing outside a polling station with billy clubs.
How are the masked, heavily armed, uniformed individuals that make up ICE less frightening than these two characters?
Maybe you chaps would be more concerned if you weren't fortunate enough to be "native born".
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Tell the story in the abstract but put the guy in a hoodie rather than tactical gear and take away his badge.
Ok, let's imagine a black guy with a legal firearm in a group of black guys, doing something in a professional capacity. Imagine a person who does not like what they do for a living, driving amongst them trying to bother them as they go about doing their job that day. What do you think, would your reaction be the same?
For extra credit, imagine if the person bothering them, was racist?
Probably Trump and Bondi wouldn't have called the driver a domestic terrorist without an investigation.
I'm sure we can all stipulate that the goalposts of the discussion can be shifted.
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Tell the story in the abstract but put the guy in a hoodie rather than tactical gear and take away his badge.
Ok, let's imagine a black guy with a legal firearm in a group of black guys, doing something in a professional capacity. Imagine a person who does not like what they do for a living, driving amongst them trying to bother them as they go about doing their job that day. What do you think, would your reaction be the same?
For extra credit, imagine if the person bothering them, was racist?
Probably Trump and Bondi wouldn't have called the driver a domestic terrorist without an investigation.
I'm sure we can all stipulate that the goalposts of the discussion can be shifted.
Point is the guy in the hoodie has the same goalposts. Self defense doesn't have a special flavor for ICE employees.
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@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Tell the story in the abstract but put the guy in a hoodie rather than tactical gear and take away his badge.
Ok, let's imagine a black guy with a legal firearm in a group of black guys, doing something in a professional capacity. Imagine a person who does not like what they do for a living, driving amongst them trying to bother them as they go about doing their job that day. What do you think, would your reaction be the same?
For extra credit, imagine if the person bothering them, was racist?
Probably Trump and Bondi wouldn't have called the driver a domestic terrorist without an investigation.
I'm sure we can all stipulate that the goalposts of the discussion can be shifted.
Point is the guy in the hoodie has the same goalposts. Self defense doesn't have a special flavor for ICE employees.
@jon-nyc said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Tell the story in the abstract but put the guy in a hoodie rather than tactical gear and take away his badge.
Ok, let's imagine a black guy with a legal firearm in a group of black guys, doing something in a professional capacity. Imagine a person who does not like what they do for a living, driving amongst them trying to bother them as they go about doing their job that day. What do you think, would your reaction be the same?
For extra credit, imagine if the person bothering them, was racist?
Probably Trump and Bondi wouldn't have called the driver a domestic terrorist without an investigation.
I'm sure we can all stipulate that the goalposts of the discussion can be shifted.
Point is the guy in the hoodie has the same goalposts. Self defense doesn't have a special flavor for ICE employees.
Point is that the two hypotheticals presented, one by you and one by me, would get a FAFO out of me and you and your twitter feed. This real life situation, on the other hand, gets a consistent FAFO from me, and an inconsistent moral and legal outrage from you and your twitter feed.
Though if there was a racial flavor to the analogy I presented with the cops, I guess you and your twitter feed would find some moral and legal outrage there as well. Just not quite as much, since you like everybody else have some Floyd fatigue.
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@jon-nyc said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Tell the story in the abstract but put the guy in a hoodie rather than tactical gear and take away his badge.
Ok, let's imagine a black guy with a legal firearm in a group of black guys, doing something in a professional capacity. Imagine a person who does not like what they do for a living, driving amongst them trying to bother them as they go about doing their job that day. What do you think, would your reaction be the same?
For extra credit, imagine if the person bothering them, was racist?
Probably Trump and Bondi wouldn't have called the driver a domestic terrorist without an investigation.
I'm sure we can all stipulate that the goalposts of the discussion can be shifted.
Point is the guy in the hoodie has the same goalposts. Self defense doesn't have a special flavor for ICE employees.
Point is that the two hypotheticals presented, one by you and one by me, would get a FAFO out of me and you and your twitter feed. This real life situation, on the other hand, gets a consistent FAFO from me, and an inconsistent moral and legal outrage from you and your twitter feed.
Though if there was a racial flavor to the analogy I presented with the cops, I guess you and your twitter feed would find some moral and legal outrage there as well. Just not quite as much, since you like everybody else have some Floyd fatigue.
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
This real life situation, on the other hand, gets a consistent FAFO from me
Clearly there is a FAFO element to the woman's behaviour. There's also a stormtrooper element to the ICE guy's.
IMHO, of course. Some people, such as the President, clearly think he's fully justified in killing the woman. No real surprise from that guy. He just loves protesters when they're fucking up the Capitol. Not so much when they're interfering with his little band of brothers.
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MN can prosecute, either now or under the next Dem administration, if this current administration proves too meddlesome with their ability to build a case.
The temperature I gather of cooler legal minds does not bode well for any actual case here. Not that there aren't plenty of legal pundits who would claim otherwise.
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MN can prosecute, either now or under the next Dem administration, if this current administration proves too meddlesome with their ability to build a case.
The temperature I gather of cooler legal minds does not bode well for any actual case here. Not that there aren't plenty of legal pundits who would claim otherwise.
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
MN can prosecute, either now or under the next Dem administration, if this current administration proves too meddlesome with their ability to build a case.
You say that as though it's perfectly OK for the Federal government to interfere in a murder investigation.
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I don't know how meddlesome they can be. I've read that they have taken control of the video evidence, but the shooter himself released the primary video to the public. There's a hypothetical scenario where there is video not seen by the public, nor MN state officials, which is being held by the FBI, and that video would be helpful for any legal case against the shooter. That's just a hypothetical. I'm not aware of any reports that there is juicy video the public hasn't already seen. What the public has already seen sure does seem to be enough to build a case with, according to many, so maybe we'll see it.
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I don't know how meddlesome they can be. I've read that they have taken control of the video evidence, but the shooter himself released the primary video to the public. There's a hypothetical scenario where there is video not seen by the public, nor MN state officials, which is being held by the FBI, and that video would be helpful for any legal case against the shooter. That's just a hypothetical. I'm not aware of any reports that there is juicy video the public hasn't already seen. What the public has already seen sure does seem to be enough to build a case with, according to many, so maybe we'll see it.
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
I don't know how meddlesome they can be. I've read that they have taken control of the video evidence, but the shooter himself released the primary video to the public. There's a hypothetical scenario where there is video not seen by the public, nor MN state officials, which is being held by the FBI, and that video would be helpful for any legal case against the shooter. That's just a hypothetical. I'm not aware of any reports that there is juicy video the public hasn't already seen. What the public has already seen sure does seem to be enough to build a case with, according to many, so maybe we'll see it.
And then if convicted Trump can pardon him.
I was only joking
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I would wager Trump has already pardoned him for errors and omissions. In his celestial magnificence, Trump is also currently absolving the forsaken officer of any alleged mortal sins associated with his actions. A legal pardon if required in future, will be like always with this POTUS, a mere performative and verbose formality sealed by a Sharpied scribble in the presence of his obsequious politburo minions, in front of the cameras and select media hounds.
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Here's a pic of an 11 year old and her 6 year old brother. They go to a school near me and were pulled out of class to be told their parents were taken by ICE yesterday 1/13. The dad was working on building local homes. You know, basically a murderer and drug dealer. The parents will likely be flown to Ecuador so they signed over temporary parental rights to a neighbor.
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@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
I don't know how meddlesome they can be. I've read that they have taken control of the video evidence, but the shooter himself released the primary video to the public. There's a hypothetical scenario where there is video not seen by the public, nor MN state officials, which is being held by the FBI, and that video would be helpful for any legal case against the shooter. That's just a hypothetical. I'm not aware of any reports that there is juicy video the public hasn't already seen. What the public has already seen sure does seem to be enough to build a case with, according to many, so maybe we'll see it.
And then if convicted Trump can pardon him.
@Doctor-Phibes said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
I don't know how meddlesome they can be. I've read that they have taken control of the video evidence, but the shooter himself released the primary video to the public. There's a hypothetical scenario where there is video not seen by the public, nor MN state officials, which is being held by the FBI, and that video would be helpful for any legal case against the shooter. That's just a hypothetical. I'm not aware of any reports that there is juicy video the public hasn't already seen. What the public has already seen sure does seem to be enough to build a case with, according to many, so maybe we'll see it.
And then if convicted Trump can pardon him.
Presidential pardons don't work for state level crimes.
